Trader drains Please fix

[Radia]

Returning to the matter at hand: what is the chance of switching drains to an AAO-based approach? Would the trader still keep the extra skills?

Based off the skill requirements for the Greed of the Xan, I'd imagine that either the trader would need some serious shotgun buffs, or the shotguns would need to get the support profession treatment (seriously lowered requirements).

I'd vote for the second option - might make it feel less like we have to get all drains going before launching an alpha ...

[Obtena]

That would be a bad approach ... without drains giving the trader weapon skills, traders can't even equip moderate weapons for their level. They would take a massive dive for PVM capability and I'm not sure that would fix whatever is wrong in PVP either.

If drains buffed anything but weapon skills and nano skills, then they would need to augment the trade toolset with weapon and nanoskill buffs.

[Radia]

Having more buffs up front would allow traders to respond offensively faster, without requiring (quite so much) to do the song-and-dance of divest - plunder - corp defence / industrial sabotage as desired. I'd argue that's a good thing - we wouldn't need to do the drain-kite dance quite as much (you probably know the one - the trader launches a drain at max range, then runs away while it recharges, then gets back in range for another drain etc).

Taking away skills laddering, however, would probably make traders much less interesting at lower levels - so switching entirely to AAO transfer would be bad. However; is there a compromise in the middle?

Say, have the higher level drains also drain AAO (as well as skills) from the target based on the level of the target - so mid-level drains drain the same skill amounts, but higher level drains do more for high level traders than they do for mid level traders. Any thoughts?

A lot of the complaints I've read in this thread aren't about drains at 220 - relatively speaking, they are much less powerful than at TL5. A sliding drain mechanism might be a way to even the playing field between 220 traders and 174 traders ...

[Shareida]

I indeed gladly ditch all drains for a +500 nanoskills/weaponskills buff and a +1k Evade boost.

That would not be a trader anymore tho. It would be more some sort of a wannabe Fixer.

[Moonbolt]

yepp more static evades, and more static nanoskills / weponskills would increase trader performance by alot....
but that would remove everything that makes the profession so fun to play...
and it wouldnt be a trader anylonger...
traders need to stack those 3 drains on ther target to have a chance at outhealing their dmg.

[Sterva]

Man, it's ironic that you retired your soldier because you didn't like being debuffed—and then you rolled another soldier, which you are now tired of being debuffed.

I hope that at the least you don't apply this same problem solving strategy to the rest of your life, otherwise that has got to be pretty frustrating.

[Radia]

yepp more static evades, and more static nanoskills / weponskills would increase trader performance by alot....
but that would remove everything that makes the profession so fun to play...
and it wouldnt be a trader anylonger...
traders need to stack those 3 drains on ther target to have a chance at outhealing their dmg.

I'd agree relying solely on buffs for combat would make things rather boring, yes . However, do bear in mind that we already do rely on one of the best evade buffs in the game (improved QU). I'm not sure drains make that much difference at TL7 pvp compared to stacking evades and AAD (with the exception of Corp Protection, which definitely DOES make a difference); primarily, I suspect, because most of the professions we get ploughed down by (not to point fingers, but soldiers are probably the worst) have too high an AR for drains to really make a difference (at least in time to stop the all-critical initial alpha). Not sure - I suspect having higher alpha-avoidance would go a long way to exposing how powerful drains really are, but we don't seem to have that yet. :P

On the subject of traders needing drains to out-heal damage - does the issue of accumulator not doing a great deal in pvp ever come up in these balance discussions?

[Moonbolt]

Err Radia im sorry....
but i choose to play my trader in pvp over my 1hb/1he trader cause of 2 facts.. 1 its more fun 2 its a realy rewarding toon if played well.

traders do have resistance to alpha - it requires u to know the profession u are fighting tho and how to handle ur char vs that specific profession.
imo trader is probably the hardest profession to master in PvP just cause the fact that we need to know how to counter other professions alphas before we have drained them enough.

for example when i say alpha resistance know when to cast ur NBG and GTH on a target... that can save u in many many many situations even tho NBG got a serius nerf with the changes to GTH.

also knowing when to use shutdown skills to interrupt the opponents alpha and give u enough breathing time to land ur drains is crucial to playing a trader well.

not using ur traders full toolset at TL 7 will get u squished more then any other profession in pvp... specially since traders tend to be called and killed even before docs nowadays.
but if u ahve good timing and know the other professions weaknesses then trader is so rewarding to play because u basically have a good chance vs any other profession.

for me i find pet users the hardest to pvp vs on my trader... just cause they arnt realy affected by our drains and they tend to eat thru my NBG and health realy faster then i can drain them up enough to be competitive vs them.

also if ur talking about ur trader beeing squished by 3 endgame players before u had a chance to drain them up.... i dont realy see a problem with that.. 3 people should be able to alpha me before i had a chance to get invulneralbe to them..
when those 3 players arnt paying attention and focusing their dmg on me tho and i have enough time to drain up all 3 of them i have found myself tanking them just fine, i dont realy see a problem with that situation either... caus eif they are so stupid that they leave me alone long enough to actualy drain all of them up they deserve to die.


on another note... trader drains are anoying... but they are nessecary.
for all u people not playing traders that are complaining about trader drains, the trader drains needs to be as effective as tehy currently are.
atleast at TL 7, if not they would be more or less useless aand the trader profession would be completly broken.
for u people claiming that they last to long... get virus scanners.. they do remove drains just fine.
traders got a ****loaaaaaaaaaad of stuff to cast both in PvM and PvP and alot of the debuffs we need to cast to land has long recharges and relatively short duration and is resisted alot even in a full nano skill setup and pre drained.
several professions do aswell have perks that instantly removes drains.
traders are very hard to play well in pvp.... but rewarding and fun when u do...

ive been on both sides in endgame pvp of trader drains... receiving and casting and i understand the annoyance with them and i see the nessecity of them.

trader drains are just fine as they are.

[Radia]

<snip>

trader drains are just fine as they are.

Really? So drains having a greater than 100% effect at TL5 actually compares to them having about a 50% effect at Tl7 (assuming most TL7 people these days have around 3k AR - I think that's reasonable for a non-support profession, right?) makes sense?? (And that's caveated with TL7s having far larger nano-resist than TL5s - the 50% number is with divest, plunder and corp protection landed).

If you disagree with the numbers above, then please post more accurate ones. The above discrepancy seems to be driving a lot of opinion towards nerfing drains, without really realising that drains do very different things at different TLs.

[Cryfreman]

Problem is you have been on the recieving end of trader drains with a Enf, try it with a class who's ar gets nerfed back to TOTW and pets get perma calmed as you need blockers up to last even a half decent amount of time.

[Obtena]

Problem is you have been on the recieving end of trader drains with a Enf, try it with a class who's ar gets nerfed back to TOTW and pets get perma calmed as you need blockers up to last even a half decent amount of time.

Yes, because a drained enfo is still WTFOMG awesome PVP? Sorry, that statement is rather ignorant. A drained enfo has significant issues in PVP with AR just like any other profession that has their AR drained by a trader.

[howlin]

Yes, because a drained enfo is still WTFOMG awesome PVP? Sorry, that statement is rather ignorant. A drained enfo has significant issues in PVP with AR just like any other profession that has their AR drained by a trader.

That is once an enfo is drained, by the time that happens trader dies 3 times.

[Cryfreman]

Yes, because a drained enfo is still WTFOMG awesome PVP? Sorry, that statement is rather ignorant. A drained enfo has significant issues in PVP with AR just like any other profession that has their AR drained by a trader.

Draining an Enfo is soooo like draining most other classes.

[sultryvoltron]

Draining an Enfo is soooo like draining most other classes.

This, lol.

[Shareida]

I'm not sure drains make that much difference at TL7 pvp compared to stacking evades and AAD (with the exception of Corp Protection, which definitely DOES make a difference); primarily, I suspect, because most of the professions we get ploughed down by (not to point fingers, but soldiers are probably the worst) have too high an AR for drains to really make a difference (at least in time to stop the all-critical initial alpha). Not sure - I suspect having higher alpha-avoidance would go a long way to exposing how powerful drains really are, but we don't seem to have that yet. :P

That precisely is the issue with traders. Everyone elses defenses work passively, on demand. We have to first create our defense by draining the opponent down.

On the subject of traders needing drains to out-heal damage - does the issue of accumulator not doing a great deal in pvp ever come up in these balance discussions?

Accumulator does a whooping 600 and something damage (halved in pvp), it is more of an annoyance, and does us more damage, due to damage shields as it helps.

It is as useful as Disharmony is for MA's in pvp.

Yes, because a drained enfo is still WTFOMG awesome PVP? Sorry, that statement is rather ignorant. A drained enfo has significant issues in PVP with AR just like any other profession that has their AR drained by a trader.

That still doesn't prevent that Enfo from hitting MR and a few perks on top of that stunning brawl (Did i mention it doesnt have to hit to stun?).

[Moonbolt]

Really? So drains having a greater than 100% effect at TL5 actually compares to them having about a 50% effect at Tl7 (assuming most TL7 people these days have around 3k AR - I think that's reasonable for a non-support profession, right?) makes sense?? (And that's caveated with TL7s having far larger nano-resist than TL5s - the 50% number is with divest, plunder and corp protection landed).

If you disagree with the numbers above, then please post more accurate ones. The above discrepancy seems to be driving a lot of opinion towards nerfing drains, without really realising that drains do very different things at different TLs.

errrmm as i said im speaking at TL 7.... my base for pvp is always at TL 7 since that is where the balance need to start..
but tbh.. it might be cause im hungover like a madman, but tbh i dont realy see if u agree with me or not.

[Moonbolt]

Problem is you have been on the recieving end of trader drains with a Enf, try it with a class who's ar gets nerfed back to TOTW and pets get perma calmed as you need blockers up to last even a half decent amount of time.

lol cry... i got bigger problems killing MPs then enfs on my trader... specially bow MPs so stop ur whining.
CC doesnt work on pets anylonger since u can insta break it on all 3 pets at once and pets hurt alot on traders.

[Moonbolt]

That is once an enfo is drained, by the time that happens trader dies 3 times.

errr... lol howlin u just dont know how to fight vs enfs... and yes if the enf is atrox and if he has MR perked that is a problem for the trader...
luckily we do have shutdown skills and a perk stun to land on that enf to counter MR.. pvp with trader is about timing.

[Moonbolt]

Shareida: i dont even see u in game anylonger so i dont realy know why ur complaining.
sure beating a good enf as trader is hard.. but possible.
anyhow in my post higher up i was saying that trader drains doesnt need a change.. they are nessecary for the trader to pvp.
if the trader drains gets nerfed like the peoples that started this thread wants that would destroy traders completly.
trader drains are fine the way they are.. atleast at TL 7.

[Radia]

I'd guess Mongo Rage is one of the things that really needs looking at; are any changes planned in that area?

As far as trader TL7 pvp goes - I'm surprised you keep reporting more difficulties against pet professions than Enforcers to be honest Moonbolt. Are calms / roots really that ineffective these days? Do pets actually have improved pathing? Has slice and dice been nerfed while I was away? Do Enforcers no longer have a fairly large amount of NR?

I haven't pvped that much since getting back into the game, but I have done a few BS rounds. Most of the issues I faced (apart from the ever-present problem of being ganged-up on - not a great deal we can do about that >.<) stemmed from being squished faster than I could react (any time I got the initiative, I tended to either win the fight or survive long enough to find help).