Simple Solution to a problem - what's wrong with it? (Camping and spawning)

[Nostra343]

I've started reading some of the threads around here, but honestly, I feel there are far more important issues in RL to spend my time on, rather then reading 186 replies, most of which end up the same, on what I thought was a simple topic...

Somebody intelligent and knowledgeable *please* explain to me why this approach is wrong:

Problem/Goals:
There are Unique/Special items. They are useful and wanted. Not everybody should have them, or more properly, not everybody should have them without certain amount of effort invested. Hence, certain difficulty or restrictions need to be imposed.

Assumptions/facts/brainstorming:
- People come to game to have fun. This seems to be oddly overlooked sometimes.
- Most people _want_ to have the items.
- All people deserve equal "chance" at the items.
(Not saying that lvl 10 person should have the same chance as lvl 110 - of course not. But the lvl 10 should have a clear path to that item - such as "if I spend the time and become lvl 110, I can get the item just like everybody else")
- ALL people should be able to eventually obtain item, given Sane pre-requisites. they should also have reasonable amount of fun in doing so

Proposed solutions:
1. Make the mobs that give these items tough.
2. For more challenge AND fun, make it more *involved* - something along the line of quests, a series of actions that need to be performed.

Now, this to me seems to be *sufficient* solution.
I fail to comprehend the *reason* for 18 hour spawns, or need for camping! I fail to see the fun-ehancing element - something I assume players are here to obtain, and FunCom is here to provide! I fail to see why multiple dungeons aren't automatically spawned so more then one team at a time, if they have the pre-requisites and are good enough, don't get the same chance at the item!

If the mob is tough; and you have the pre-requisites (good enough team; high-enough level; and previous action required in case of more complex quests); why should you be exposed to 18 hour waits; moreover to 18 hours *uncertain* waits, where you haven't a clue when or where or *if* you will ever get what you came here for?
What purpose does the 18 hour uncertain wait have? If it's an artifical way of limiting the circulation of the item - BOY does it suck! :P
Honestly, I'm not sure I admire the people who spend weeks to obtain the item, as much as I wonder at their sanity

It ruins the exploration spirit I believe game should be based on. It turns it into drudgery, and yes, work. Not even pleasant, fun work - I honestly cannot believe ANYbody, in guild or not, level 200 or not, has *fun* in spending a week to get a particular item!

So why have it there? What's the FunCom's explanation / mechanic need to make obtaining special items so controversial and mind-numbingly boring and difficult?


Somebody *intelligent* please explain this to me, as I honestly just don't understand why this system is in place :-(

As it is, my only reasonably Fun chance of getting items is to go to eBay - certainly not something I believe FunCom should sponsor...

[___________Obergeist]

Holy, a sane player wondering why he should camp. Will wonders never cease.

[Nostra343]

oh... sorry... I'm probably saying the same thing that's been said a zillion times before :-(

It's just that what little I've seen of debate on the topic here, most of it has been unproductive accusations, name calling, flames, and blame-shifting :-(

I'm just wondering what is wrong with what seems an obvious and reasonable solution to _me_... I'm sure I'm missing something big, I just don't know what :-(

[___________Damion666]

Hehehe.... ive been wondering the exact same thing. Thought i read something somewhere once that said that special/class defining items wouldnt be something of great difficulty or overly time consuming to obtain. 18 hours of waiting for the chance to get an item just seems stupid to me, and i wont do it.

[___________Obergeist]

Oh, no need to apologize.

I'm glad that you see how foolish the current rare item spawn rate on top of risk vs. reward.

I want more level headed posters like you to present logical arguements to FC. I have to agree with you on camping though, you really have to question the folks that do this... I don't do it myself, just get a posse, and knock on doors to see if "x" mob is in. Camping isn't TOO bad on RK2, with the exception of Triplumbo... though... the rust pitted rings are probably one of the top three rings in the game, if not the best.

What you're missing is... FC isn't very dependable when it comes to fixes. The code seems so intertwined that one change effects another and it's usually up to the players to spot and report them. I've had my credits wiped out and my inventory partially cleared due to a crash bug.

Nothing as anticlimatic as going through the TRL dungeon, climbing those damn stairs(love the statis tube with the bodies in the center though, real lovely), to reach the office of the director, only to see a 150+ show up, and promptly kill the director and take the form. This is dumb beyond reasoning, as well as a let down to the team that fought their way just to see someone whisk in and whisk out, without even leaving a bone. There can be several ways to get around this, such as personal flags(can't get "x" item again for "y" days), mirror copies of the dungeon, etc.

Nice post Nostra343, pretty much sums up the faults of camping in a nutshell. This is a game. It shouldn't be work.

[_______________Creep]

I'll respond to this post. It's certainly more constructive than the "Storm" post in this forum.

For me, the most powerful item in the game for my class (NT) is the Gaily Painted Hood (http://antiguardians.org/itemdb.php?&cmd=view&id=158795). Combine this with a Hardcore CPU and a good crunch and I can halve my nano costs. Add to this +9 to all nano skills and 400 nano, and you've got yourself a very powerful item. I know of two people of RK2 with this item. It drops, I've been told, from Taresque on an infrequent basis.

The chances of my character getting this item under the current rules? Nil. And the same can be applied to any of the "good" items. The Shades. Prof Jones Vest. Rust Pitted rings. No chance. The campers here are too organised and know too much about the game (spawn times, how to put together a high damage team, etc...) for me to compete.

Now, I'm not an occasional player. I play a lot. And I would like a chance at these items without having to either toady to the campers or to compete with them. What I want to is the chance to put together a team of friends and go out and work for these rewards.

I can see why FC have implemented the spawn time. It's to restrict the number of the very nice, potentially class defining items in the game. Fair enough. And it's a simple, easy-to-implement solution. Unfortunately, it splits the players within RK between the "haves" and "have-nots". Even getting to the point where ARKs have to intervene at Dodga to keep the "queue" in order. Ridiculous!

All I can hope is that FC realise what is going on here. The feeling that there are items out there that you will not see is immensly frustrating.

It seems to me that the simple solution is have static dungeons that work like missions (which I believe is how SoM worked originally). You get a key, and you enter, with your team, in your own version of the place. Then increase the difficulty of the static, or reduce the drop rates of the items from the boss mobs. Easy. None of this pitting the players of RK against each other in this divisive way.

Or, even simpler, just remove the statics and give the powerful guilds good items every one in a while.

Creala.

[______________Takuan]

To be honest I think they should have jsut scrapped the entire concept of dungeons and had this type of loot drop off the new team mission boss mobs. Maybe even make it so that you can choose a missions based on loot. Introducing the "dodga/alvin" type quests and the mega mobs is just gonna make the game like EQ. Bleh

The Team missions could be a natural extension of the dungeons by making them mini dungeons such that you get your own copy (obviously) but hard enough to require a large group effort to accomplish the task. Personally it also makes more sense to do it as a mission based dungeon then a static due to the storyline. All Static mobs and dungeons do is piss people off.

Quests are a little different but could be tied into team missions such that any killing of a quest mob happens there instead of out in the field. The NPC that starts the quest would end up acting as a team mission terminal of sorts spawning a unique missions/dungeon for players to interact in without the useless competition. The NPC could even spawn multiple missions based on returned items or key words/milestones completed.

I think this is a better solution and probably not hard for them to impliment since the team missions stuff is already planned.

Just some thoughts

[________________Crin]

Probably already stated but here is my solution to limiting rare items in static dungeons

Put level restrictions on the dungeons.
The restrictions should be based on the highest level member of the team. If you are too high level, you either can't go in at all or a higher level dungeon with tougher mobs spawns. I'd prefer the new spawning dungeon but if it is too much work or requires too many computer resources then just do the hard cap.

Automatically assign mission unpon entering dungeon
The mission has a strict time limit and requires that a certain amount of experience points be earned in each major section of the dungeon. You can loot the boss mob only if you have completed the mission.

The level restriction means that the dungeon will always be a challange to anyone who enters. The mission will prevent camping because of the time limit and will also make sure that the player has to fight their way through the entier dungeon.

Those two changes should be very simple to implement. The level restriction is a simple check and the mission is only a small variation of the current mission system. If the changes are put in, then I see no reason why the boss mob could not be always up. If a player can fight through the dungeon and get to the end, they should have a shot at killing the boss mob within a time limit. If time expires, they have to do it all over again.

If for some reason that system can be exploited then put a cap on how often a player can get the mission. Twice a week sounds good. This still allows the player to do the dungeon if they want to but they only have a chance to loot the boss mob twice a week. It's still camping but you can do other things while you wait. I'd prefer that this extra limit not be put in.

[_________________Zel]

Originally posted by Nostra343
So why have it there? What's the FunCom's explanation / mechanic need to make obtaining special items so controversial and mind-numbingly boring and difficult?

Because that's how EQ does it. And EQ has the largest suscriber base of all the mmorgs and makes a ton of cash. People copy success, especially when money's concerned.

A boss mob that spawns rarely, rewards rarely and takes alot of people to kill gives people something to work for. A rare, hard to get reward is something to strive for, a goal to work towards to. You're going to spend a helluva lot of time going after it, i.e. extend your subscription time.

People whine and complain about camping, the competion and contention over the rare spawn. But they still camp and they spend hours on end doing it. Camping stretches a little content a long way. Very cost efficient.

Why do something hard like a storyline and a dynamic world when people are more than willing to spend 8 hours sitting in one place waiting for a mob to show up that just might have the item the player wants?

Why should the devs change camping? It works.

[Arinia]

Really easy.

Sitting camping a mob for 12 hours is boring as hell and serves no purpose. It only rewards students/people with no jobs/etc who have that kinda of time.

Make quests. Make them long. Make them take 12+ hours to complete to get the item. Make it so you don't have to do it all at once.

Hell, even make the quest time longer, 18 hours, to offset the fact that camping is contiguous and this isn't.

Problem is quests require thought.... and checking for exploits (as we have seen).

Making a mob with an 18 hour spawn takes 0 effort on game designers part, and that's why it will continue. Sad but true.

[Nostra343]

well, Zel, that's an appropriatelly cynical view, but...


- there is a better way to enforce rarity or hardness-to-obtain of items. This is an unimaginative, clumsy solution.
- for every few people that will extend their subscription to obtain such an item, it appears to me that at least as many people quit completely.
- moreover, it is a gigantic contribution to the overally increasing level of frustration felt by a significant portion of AO gamers; so even if not as many people feel particularly "I quit because I will not camp so-and-so to obtain such-and such item", quite a few people go "I quit because this game is too damn frustrating and FC doesn't give damn about players". The effects just accumulate...
It appears to me that if you indeed are right about FC's reasons for the camping system, and I completely admit that it's a distinct possibility (though in the benefit-of-doubt approach I believe/hope there are other and more complex reasons), then it's an immensely short-sighted narrow vision that drives companies into ground. Consider that this frustration goes over into any other games FC produces, and losses accumulate pretty rapidly. Ok, so maybe *I* will buy 3 copies of "The longest journey 2" the very moment it (and if) appears, but I know a fair amount of people who will avoid boxes with "FunCom" on them just out of plain spite


I absolutelly agree that rare items should be rare (duh!:P), and HARD to obtain; they just shouldn't be IMPOSSIBLE or immensly FRUSTRATING to obtain .

I *strongly* believe that there are many good ways to make obtaining such item Hard but Fun work, all the while increasing FunCom's profits .

[Nostra343]

>>Making a mob with an 18 hour spawn takes 0 effort on game designers part, and that's why it will continue. Sad but true.

I guess that feels like most likely explanation to me; or at least a very large part of the explanation.
It seems like a quick, artificial way to make a rare item "rare". Simple, Brute-force effective, so to heck with players.

I understand FC has to prioritize things, but gimminy, spending some time on this sure feels like a worthwhile investment to *me*...

... but then again, I'm just a player and not a developer

[______________Cayana]

Originally posted by Zel


Because that's how EQ does it. And EQ has the largest suscriber base of all the mmorgs and makes a ton of cash. People copy success, especially when money's concerned.

A boss mob that spawns rarely, rewards rarely and takes alot of people to kill gives people something to work for. A rare, hard to get reward is something to strive for, a goal to work towards to. You're going to spend a helluva lot of time going after it, i.e. extend your subscription time.

People whine and complain about camping, the competion and contention over the rare spawn. But they still camp and they spend hours on end doing it. Camping stretches a little content a long way. Very cost efficient.

Why do something hard like a storyline and a dynamic world when people are more than willing to spend 8 hours sitting in one place waiting for a mob to show up that just might have the item the player wants?

Why should the devs change camping? It works.

I can see your point, but let me just say that the day I find myself sitting in one place for more than an hour waiting for some monster to spawn is the day I will cancel my AO subscription.

I don't play EQ, I don't want to play EQ, and I refuse to spend my time camping mobs. I know there are many other people who feel just like me. We would rather go play some other game than have to spend hours doing nothing waiting for a spawn. Hopefully if enough people speak up and make their voices heard we can put a stop to the camping once and for all.

[_______bunderscratch]

Originally posted by Zel


Because that's how EQ does it. And EQ has the largest suscriber base of all the mmorgs and makes a ton of cash. People copy success, especially when money's concerned.

Why should the devs change camping? It works.

No it doesn't. It make MMORPG a niche market for hardcore players only. Are MMORPG for casual player possible ? Yes Diablo II _is_ the answer, the only (though not exactly) MMORPG for casual player. And the casual player MMORPG is there the money are. I think AO was designed with casual player in minde - from there DII like mission structure. However abissmal launch and lack of balance made this bid fail for now at least AO is just another hardcore MMORPG. Earth&Beyond now is current bid for casual player...

[_______________Chill]

Screw rare loot from unique mobs.
I have fun without those f.ucking boring items to get and do well.

Sure I killed the tarasque and mantis whore several times but it was only for fun, I could care less about what they drop.

[_______________Lozer]

Thank you captian ovious.

[Bionitrous]

If you could log on and see twenty guildmates and say 'let's finally have a shot at the Tarasque' then I'd say they've done it right. As it stands they had their head up their asses when putting that thing in the game. I've had more people quit because they NEVER will have a chance to even get to its lair much less out grief the usuals who have set up shop there.

Nobody really is going to stay in a game to fight the Tarasque and get its items when they've done that for years in another game. I wonder why I stay in the game myself when I know me and my guild will never be able to kill the damn thing even though given a good Sunday we eventually would be able to. That single Sunday with an instance of Camelot free of the griefers, gankers, ninja looters, general a-holes, etc., would be the kind of thing that would keep those involved in the raid paying for another six months. Even if we died thirty times that day, it would be worth it. As it stands the stupid thing won't be there or some Uber-guild will be sure to ruin our fun.

-Put all outdoor uniques into little huts
-Stop cramming everybody into the same instance of these dungeons
-Make missions with keysto kill these things

[Darkbane]

This has been discussed a lot. And there have been many sensible solutions proposed. What would be nice is if we could persuade Funcom (Gaute?) to do an article on how they see 'static' dungeons, quests etc working without the need to camp and so everyone has a fair chance.

I like static dungeons working like team missions, the mission could be collected from a (non-killable) NPC after a bit of dialogue, maybe even require collecting another item first (go kill the xzy mob in zone abc and return the pqr - the mob should have a fast spawn time and be worth minimal xp for it's toughness, nor should it be aggro).

Static quests suffer a similar problem. The NPCs involved should not 'despawn', they should only give the quest to someone who does not have any of the reward items, and the reward items should be NODROP. So, if you have the item (or an upgrade of it from a later quest), then the NPC will talk to you but not give you the mission, nor any reward. And once you get the item, you cannot give it away, so no farming. However, if you lose it, then you can go and get another. The code to check for the item would need to check you, your inventory, your bank, your appartment (if any) and all containers in the aforementioned places, but I'm sure the code for the UNIQUE flag must do this already (or it should).

The dyna-camps that are in the works will hopefully be another source of unusual stuff. Special rewards and drops should not be over powerful or must-have items, but they should be visually distinct, more of a 'gee-wiz, that's cool looking' than 'look at my uber item'.

Oh, and I want a quest for an item that lets you change the colour of your Yalm to one of a variety of shades, how cool would that be? Useless as a 'game' enhancer, but so high on the coolness scale...