Balanced ways to reduce Enforcer and Soldier mass pvp/pvm surviviability?

[Mijjet]

I think that they are fine in mass PvP, however I would like to see evade debuff on MuIB. Something like -500 evades. I mean it is supposed to be trade of speed for uber HP =)

Seriously... It takes a hell of a lot of work to get a well geared enfo, and tbh the well deserved desserts are being able to tank with him. Its the same with any other prof: A well twinked Doc can chain heal himself. A well twinked Shade can OD most everything. A well twinked Crat can solo til he falls asleep casting init debuffs for the 100th time. A well done NT can get hundreds of kills in pvp.

Every prof has its strengths... A tank having defense... well that just makes sense. And a mass pvm tank having a lot of HP... duh? sitting at a reasonably high amount of HP with Doc buffs and highway up, my enfo tanks pande easily most of the time, but when several dozen mobs appear out of nowhere... people sure appreciate the effort I've put into making him survivable.

[PingBong]

1) Do you think enforcers and soldiers in mass pvp are in fact ok and why?
Yes, altho as a melee prof id like to see soldiers more exposed to front line attacks, in true mass pvp it is somewhat difficult to get close and do anything before they put you in a massive dent in ur hp.

2) If you think they are too strong, what would you change?
Taking into concideration the very high survivabity on both profs - i think soldiers are a bit too effective, while enfs are pretty much limited to trying to gank the support profs soldiers are excellent at damaging any type of enemy.

3) How would changes to other professions help balance this situation (if it is needed)?
Maybe trying to develop a type of tie-in of profession role and their positioning within the blob, as it is right now mass pvp basically consists of combat oriented profs trying to gun down other sides support ASAP, what id like to see is means to direct that fire off support to the tanks for the suitable profs.

4) Do you think enforcers and soldiers are ok in pvm raiding or teaming and why?
Very hard to objectively rate this, pvm in ao has evolved into a stupendously easy task and profs and their toolsets dont really matter that much at all.

5) If you think they are too strong, what would you change?
6) How would changes to other professions help balance this situation (if it is needed)?
nerf everything or beef up mobs!

[Questra]

Let's keep the semantics of whether NTs kill soldiers with doubles or triples out of Gate's thread because it's pretty irrelevant.

A lot of useful stuff has been put forward so far. That an NT has said he thinks LE nukes should debuff Rad reflect only is amazing and this will help make things more fair in mass PvP and NW especially.

A lot of people suggesting that BR shouldn't give the trader 100% reflect is also a very good thing, and many of these also think it shouldn't completely wipe soldier reflects to 0%.

The AMS idea going atm where AMS includes 80s of -4k nanoskills and 2mins of "Affected by TMS/AMS" is getting lots of support too.

As for enfs, I've seen some good suggestions that seem ok, and a few which seem a bit too much of a "nerf" or a bit impractical. As for PvM, enfs don't need any kind of nerf. They are hugely valuable and before anyone complains about nerfing enf power in PvM you should really wait to see what this healing nerf is going to entail. Because if it's something like 50% heal effeciency in PvM as well as PvP, we really don't want enfs to be any worse off.

[Hacre]

That an NT has said he thinks LE nukes should debuff Rad reflect only is amazing and this will help make things more fair in mass PvP and NW especially.

Well I figure this being the first (and possibly only if we **** it up) time we'll get this real opportunity to debate and suggest the way forward for AO then petty squabbling and trolling needs to be put aside. I can't very well demand that unfair things remain for professions I don't play, while demanding better things for the profession I do play.

That would not be balanced and well, we know what the focus of all of this is supposed to be. To the OP, I'm sorry for the earlier derailment with NT vs Soldier, but exaggerations and outright lies about how things currently perform in PvP especially isn't for these forums, that's best kept to the other more usual troll playgrounds and if left unchecked could very well disjoint this balancing effort that we are all a part of.

[Mijjet]

As for enfs, I've seen some good suggestions that seem ok, and a few which seem a bit too much of a "nerf" or a bit impractical. As for PvM, enfs don't need any kind of nerf. They are hugely valuable and before anyone complains about nerfing enf power in PvM you should really wait to see what this healing nerf is going to entail. Because if it's something like 50% heal effeciency in PvM as well as PvP, we really don't want enfs to be any worse off.

This ^^ Also, having fought against several traders recently on my enfo in BS I find it increasingly ridiculous that BR can make them completely invulnerable...

The AMS idea going atm where AMS includes 80s of -4k nanoskills and 2mins of "Affected by TMS/AMS" is getting lots of support too.

Also ^^ excellent idea.

[Kinkst44h]

If enforcers had 80k hp and could run around with normal runspeed I'd agree with what you are saying.

In the real world, with 30-35k hp enforcers are fine, if anything they need a boost to their survivability. You don't see them charging and fighting at the enemy blob (with 30k hp) and that is usually what tanks do in MMO's, push the line.

[Neccoz]

ok... original runspeed = 2016
SL ess = -2500
GSF = 720
rage = 1200
calias wolf = 390

2016+720+1200+390-2500 = 1826.

closing the gap on the called target before hes either dead or has moved away is very unlikely when hes gonna have over 3k runspeed.

I mentioned having a fixer IN TEAM, so that's 820 RS not 720. And you forgot the generic +30 RS buff. So my calculation was correct, it's -60. Thank you very much.

[PingBong]

however drop the sless and boom u got 3.3k rs! i much rather run around with that then 27k extra hp which in mass pvp is more like a burden then a good thing. and cool thing is as a MA - u can sympathyse! would u take on an extra 27k hp leaving the rest of ur toolset the same?

[Herkulease]

Enforcers can escape death too easily/frequently in PvP. But we have our own problems too. To solve both problems at the same time...


Give us a new nano.

"Dig In"

Enforcer uploads hostile nano, useable on others. The purpose being to give the enforcers a reason to risk their lives.

On use, the target is rooted for 10-15 seconds while the enforcer gains 300 (or more) AR. After 10-15 seconds the target (if alive) can flee. But the enforcer is now "trapped" in a circular area, and unable to zone for the nanos entire duration (2 minutes or more at least). The "circlular" area would be large enough that in a typical battle the enforcer could move towards other targets, still benefiting from the extra AR, however there would be a limit to his/her movement. Additionally the enforcer is now likely out of DD perks (for much of the duration of this nano) and ------> Can't Zone <------- (No BY, Fixer/Engy/Item Warps)


So summed up.

10-15 second unbreakable root.
Large AR bonus.
Limited area of movement for significant period of time.
Inability to zone for same duration.



Why do I think this is ok?

Enforcers, even if they kill their target are now low on kill power.
Enforcers are now essentially rooted, but still dangerous.
This has virtually no effect in PvM.
Enforcer gains the AR bonus they DO need when in a non PvP/MR (Tank setup).
Enforcers place themself in a situation that could easily turn ugly for them.
Enforcer can't run (But can kite melee a little).
Secondary targets can run to saftey, (But can also be killed).
Ranged targets can run out of range and safely kill the enforcer.
This is not a guaranteed /win for the enforcer.

[NoGoal]

I'd rather get the Put up or Shut Up nano which was the reason I made my enfo my main :P

[PingBong]

Enforcers can escape death too easily/frequently in PvP. But we have our own problems too. To solve both problems at the same time...


Give us a new nano.

"Dig In"

Enforcer uploads hostile nano, useable on others. The purpose being to give the enforcers a reason to risk their lives.

On use, the target is rooted for 10-15 seconds while the enforcer gains 300 (or more) AR. After 10-15 seconds the target (if alive) can flee. But the enforcer is now "trapped" in a circular area, and unable to zone for the nanos entire duration (2 minutes or more at least). The "circlular" area would be large enough that in a typical battle the enforcer could move towards other targets, still benefiting from the extra AR, however there would be a limit to his/her movement. Additionally the enforcer is now likely out of DD perks (for much of the duration of this nano) and ------> Can't Zone <------- (No BY, Fixer/Engy/Item Warps)


So summed up.

10-15 second unbreakable root.
Large AR bonus.
Limited area of movement for significant period of time.
Inability to zone for same duration.



Why do I think this is ok?

Enforcers, even if they kill their target are now low on kill power.
Enforcers are now essentially rooted, but still dangerous.
This has virtually no effect in PvM.
Enforcer gains the AR bonus they DO need when in a non PvP/MR (Tank setup).
Enforcers place themself in a situation that could easily turn ugly for them.
Enforcer can't run (But can kite melee a little).
Secondary targets can run to saftey, (But can also be killed).
Ranged targets can run out of range and safely kill the enforcer.
This is not a guaranteed /win for the enforcer.

i really dont want my enfo to be turned into a mole

[supernaute]

I dont play soldier or enf and I dont think they should be nerfed in any way..
They are fine as it is

[Josephina]

A lone enforcer with 70k hp, 33% reflects and a bunch of evades+aad; is not unkillable by a zerg or a hard mob. An enforcer with all that, and 1 or more doctors behind him that heal 12/15k every 4 seconds and an Improved Complete Heal every 20seconds... Enforcers could be worn down if it were not for the absurd amount of healing doctors have (the healing of all other profs is pretty much irrelevant when you have doc+enf).

Doc+enf turns most pve single encounters into a joke. Add a soldier, crat & keeper to that and I wouldn't even call it pve anymore.

If taunts were useful in pvp (example) and players had to kill enfs before moving on to the rest of the professions, it would turn all large scale pvp into a stalemate.

I see 2 solutions for this: Either make enfs gankable by lowering the max amount of hp they can get (this will make soldiers by far the best pve tank) or lower the amount doctors can heal in both pve and pvp and above all: drastically nerf ICH.



As for soldiers, imo they quite simply have too much reflects during AMS (shameless "I told you so"). Being immortal against anything; unless there is a trader, NT or engineer present; does not make for a great gaming experience. My suggestion: lower the amount the reflect back buffs from 5% to 1% and hardcap all reflects at 90%.

[Questra]

I see 2 solutions for this: Either make enfs gankable by lowering the max amount of hp they can get (this will make soldiers by far the best pve tank) or lower the amount doctors can heal in both pve and pvp and above all: drastically nerf ICH.

As for soldiers, imo they quite simply have too much reflects during AMS (shameless "I told you so"). Being immortal against anything; unless there is a trader, NT or engineer present; does not make for a great gaming experience. My suggestion: lower the amount the reflect back buffs from 5% to 1% and hardcap all reflects at 90%.

I don't think doc healing should be lowered PvE, not until we get an influx of new players and the PvE zergs get a bit bigger.

As for soldiers, two DD profs can drop a soldier through AMS5, so "immortal against anything" is a very false and unfair statement, even if there were no traders, NTs, and engies in AO. You need to be objective about these things, rather than using words like "immortal" and "invulnerable".

You could ask for reflect bracers and the scheol reflect HUD or the Iron Reet reflect item to be removed from the game or nerfed, I wouldn't complain, but for a soldier to use any one of those items already nerfs their AR and HP or NCU.

[Hacre]

I don't think doc healing should be lowered PvE, not until we get an influx of new players and the PvE zergs get a bit bigger.

As for soldiers, two DD profs can drop a soldier through AMS5, so "immortal against anything" is a very false and unfair statement, even if there were no traders, NTs, and engies in AO. You need to be objective about these things, rather than using words like "immortal" and "invulnerable".

You could ask for reflect bracers and the scheol reflect HUD or the Iron Reet reflect item to be removed from the game or nerfed, I wouldn't complain, but for a soldier to use any one of those items already nerfs their AR and HP or NCU.

Just outta curiosity Q, how much HP does this soldier under AMS5 have and when you say "drop", do you mean "gank through AMS5" or "defeat through AMS5"?

[Questra]

Just outta curiosity Q, how much HP does this soldier under AMS5 have and when you say "drop", do you mean "gank through AMS5" or "defeat through AMS5"?

A soldier who sacrifices a tiny bit of AR for HP has 24k HP, 23k without towers. I have 24k atm and will have 25k with my ACDC.

Standing, two good DDs can kill me through AMS5, sitting for HD they can't, but there isn't much point sitting down for 80s and trying to kill someone after AMS is down. Would be pretty funny though

[styles999]

I cant speak for Enfos, but there are enuff proffs out there to completely negate a Soldiers defense, making him only defended by HD/HP...which by itself, IS no defense.

Soldiers will be fine...you got ur AS/hotswap nerf, now leave us alone.

yeah, there are 3 that i know of, nt, trader, ma...well atleast thats all i use against a soldier.

depends on the person playing tho honestly, ive seen soldiers completely eat up most professions(under ams), then run like a girl when its down

enfos well, up close are well, enfos...

[wyldebeast]

WARNING**** PvM CONTENT ONLY ****WARNING

1) Do you think enforcers and soldiers in mass pvp are in fact ok and why?
Dunno, my enf and solja aren't big enough to pvp with.

2) If you think they are too strong, what would you change?
See 1.

3) How would changes to other professions help balance this situation (if it is needed)?
See 1.

4) Do you think enforcers and soldiers are ok in pvm raiding or teaming and why?
As a doc, healing in PvM has become so easy more than 1 doc is hardly ever needed. With the current mongo, enfs are pretty certain to hold aggro on everything, without much thought. And incase of trouble, the single taunt is so massive, it will almost guarantee aggro instantly. With their current hp any enf with a nice AAD setup allows my doc to go make coffee, watch tv, whatever while healing a beast raid/apf/whatever. Raids should NEVER be so easy.
Same goes for soljas in these new 1 mob "raids" 1 soldier in the team reduces the damage taken so much, that healing often becomes a non-issue. If the soldier is also tanking, AMS gives such a huge damage reduction that an MA could take over healing, since a doc is definately not needed any more.
Also, the amount of benefits a group gains from soldiers should be reduced. When building a team, youre never hurt by adding another soldier, since their damage alone is enough to justify their being in the group.

5) If you think they are too strong, what would you change?
I'm not sure about how to fix enfos. Maybe reduce ACs by a huge ammount when imub'ing? I don't know.
With regards to soldiers, I could imagine having reflects work on heals (and heal delta) too. Want to ignore 80% of the damage dealt to you? Sure, but the healing applied to you will be reduced by the same ammount.

6) How would changes to other professions help balance this situation (if it is needed)?
I'm not sure other professions should change due to these 2 (soldiers in particular) being in a bad state. Better look at where the problem is, instead of everywhere else.

PS. Yes, I know enfos and soldiers will whine, and ofc some pvp'ers will instantly use some of the aspects in order to whine about their pvp situation, even though I specifically placed them only in the PvM section. But even enfos and soldiers must be able to see that in many situations they have become too powerful for the PvM encounters the game provide.

[Hacre]

A soldier who sacrifices a tiny bit of AR for HP has 24k HP, 23k without towers. I have 24k atm and will have 25k with my ACDC.

Standing, two good DDs can kill me through AMS5, sitting for HD they can't, but there isn't much point sitting down for 80s and trying to kill someone after AMS is down. Would be pretty funny though

You can't kill at least one of them?

[Hacre]

PS. Yes, I know enfos and soldiers will whine, and ofc some pvp'ers will instantly use some of the aspects in order to whine about their pvp situation, even though I specifically placed them only in the PvM section. But even enfos and soldiers must be able to see that in many situations they have become too powerful for the PvM encounters the game provide.

Then end game content should actually reflect the fact that those professions have gained extra power/damage along with everyone else. Sector 42 is still the only place that provides a challenge and requires cooperation/teamwork and more than a Fantastic Four team.

EDIT, gah I meant to copy this into the post above, sorry.