Will FC change any pvp level ranges?

[Armus]

You can't, but that's not exclusively a problem with TL7 pockets. That's can also be a problem with omni apathy and history shows that even when Tl7 pockets didn't exist, apathy was a cause for lack of tower war activity. You have created a fallacy where you think Tl7 pockets is the only reason for no activity in TL5..

Yeah it's not like I've been involved in this both when omnis were dominating and when clan were and had direct experience in it, is it? I've seen first hand how demoralizing and how unfun it is to have a raidforce wiped by tl7's or by pocketed tl5's. Both on my own side and on the opposite. And I dare say that most ppl in this thread would agree.

That's not the only plausible reason there isn't any action happening at that level. You just fail to admit that.

I'm glad you agree that tl7 interaction is a plausible reason for the lack of tl5 nw. Only took you a few years to admit that. Personally I never claimed that it was the sole reason. But I do claim that if the ranges were changed we would see much more action. And that's all that I want.

How much or how little is that lack of action attributable to the TL7 pockets? Considering that there was as many and as long periods of inactivity BEFORE the PVP level rules were extended to 220,.

Many 3 year dead periods? Wow. Really? The first few years when I played (2005-2007 ish) saw tons and tons of action. I guess we just have a different opinion about what the word many means. And in any case, just because the game sucked before, does that mean it has to suck now? Is that really your standpoint?

I would say it's not a significant factor.

And I would say it is. Along with everyone I've ever talked to except you.

[QUOTE=Obtena;5952575]
Even if it is, there is still nothing stopping people from making the right twinks to avoid the TL7 pocketing issue[QUOTE=Obtena;5952575]

Except that it's totally lame and unfun and not desired by the community, no.

... other than their own apathy

We have different level ranges. FC clearly intended for highbies not to interfer with lowbie affairs. They intended NW to happen at multiple different levels. If they hadn't we'd be able to attack level 1's on our 220's. Tl7 nw is dominated by pointbots. Lowbie isn't. The apathy doesn't have to extend down to lower levels at all. In fact usually the faction that owns tl7 doesnt own tl3 and under. And that's proof that the so called apathy you are trying to mix up in this doesn't have to apply to lower levels. It only does in tl5 because tl7's can affect the outcome of tl5 battles.

(or apparently, the difficulty of arithmetic for many people).

Active tl5 twinks are counted in the hundreds. Active tl4 twinks I can be counted on 3-4 hands.

I'd say you're the one that needs help with the arithmetics since you think tl4 can somehow replace tl5.

Will removing pocketing from TL5 wars remove the apathy? Not likely, since there was inactivity before TL7 pocketing existed.

We get your opinion. But what do you stand to lose from a change to lose if the ranges were adjusted?

Anyways, look back in the thread. Whatever needs to be said has already been said. As I mentioned already, you haven't brought anything new here to expand this discussion further. Maybe the thread needs a lock.

That's a bit rich coming from someone who is arguing FOR keeping a system that has killed tl5 NW for years. Really, that's rich.

[Armus]

It's hard not to make that claim.

You're saying flat out that you think FC wants the second most active NW range to be dead. How deliciously crazy and deluded you are.

If I recall, FC that implemented the extension of the TL5 range by applying the laddering rules from 200 up to 220 BEFORE BS existed.

If you mean the range change then yes it happened before BS. It was changed in 2005 or so. But a we have told you 500 times by now the power delta has increased many, many times since then due to the massive love tl7 toons got while tl5's got nothing. It needs to be adjusted again just to get back to where we were back in 2005 balance wise.

Even if it was after the fact, I wouldn't be all that shocked if the BS ranges were made without any consideration for NW ... in fact to me it's obvious.

Yes they surely were. No discussion about that. But let's not forget that those levels were implemented by the same crackpots that gave us sb+os, br and gth. Nothing they did should be taken seriously. They were clueless and they damaged the game severely.

After a few iterations of changing BS level ranges now, they still don't correspond to any logical NW levels. They can't really ... because of laddering.

Todays bs ranges were changed in order to make BS run as much as possible. That's it.

It would be foolhardy to claim FC are attempting to link NW and BS level ranges somehow because if that's the case, they are failing miserably.

Actually it would be foolhardy for you to claim that anyone ever claimed FC tried to link them. Noone ever did afaik.

[Obtena]

If you mean the range change then yes it happened before BS. It was changed in 2005 or so. But a we have told you 500 times by now the power delta has increased many, many times since then due to the massive love tl7 toons got while tl5's got nothing. It needs to be adjusted again just to get back to where we were back in 2005 balance wise.

And as I said 500 times before, the TL7-TL5 delta that existed BEFORE people made those 165+ twinks was more than enough to kill any 165 twink, but people made 165 twinks anyways .... their fault. The fact that delta has increased since then is irrelevant. Any reasonable player will know that as the game and items evolve, that delta will change. That fact is just ANOTHER reason to make sensibly leveled twinks for NW that will avoid those deltas, regardless of whether they increase or decrease and FC gives us one very simple rule too allow us to do that. The 'power delta' excuse is just that... an excuse. FC shouldn't be responsible for changes to allow players to act so stupidly with no consequences.

We get your opinion. But what do you stand to lose from a change to lose if the ranges were adjusted?

Depends on what the change is. Personally, I don't lose anything. I haven't rolled twinks past 170. In fact, I would potentially gain the use of my 170 crat and my 165 NT. What OTHER people would potentially lose is the use of 200+ twinks they have rolled, that somehow, you think is completely reasonable, even though they aren't doing anything wrong here.

I haven't seen a recommendation on how to 'fix' this without invalidating other people's efforts. It's worth stating again. Anyone rolling into the TL7 range invalidated their OWN efforts by doing so. That's a way different situation than FC invalidating your efforts by making range adjustments. Even if FC agrees with you and is willing to change it, what solutions are there?

1. Make it so that you can only ladder 1 TL higher instead of 2? Great, because a 204 twink won't hand you you're ass at 165 just as fast as a 207 will? Please. Be honest.

2. Cap at 200? That doesn't change anything except the level that people would cap their twinks to avoid level 200 twinks. People would still bring 220's to kill them anyways so ... another nonsense solution.

3. Some absolute hardcap? Great, so we are back to the same place we were BEFORE FC implemented laddering to 220 where everyone just rolls to the level cap? That's just dumbing down the game and potentially making a range of professions irrelevant, as level caps do quite often in this game.

[Gridpain]

I haven't proposed anything for a fix.

Well, yes you did !

Proposing to make people roll TL5 twinks level 130 is at least a fun proposal !
Specialy if CT is 165+.

If you aren't smart enough to deal with the strategy part of the NW, FC shouldn't be tasked to hardcode it in for you and you don't have grounds to QQ about it.

OMG ! you ve used the forbidden word ! You re getting SOOOOO banned !

[Obtena]

Well, yes you did !

Proposing to make people roll TL5 twinks level 130 is at least a fun proposal !
Specialy if CT is 165+.

Like I already said .. the prevalence of 165+ CTs is not enough to justify compromising the whole laddering strategy of NW at a single title level, especially to placate people that bring the pain upon themselves by making dumb level choices for their twinks at the expense of people that have made good level choices. The fairy tale scenarios are interesting, but they aren't really .... real. People aren't coming to TL5 NW with 205 docs and people rarely have the opportunity to place anything BUT a QL 150 CT at a towersite.

Making a 130 level twink isn't a 'fix', it's a natural conclusion for any reasonable NW twinker that wants to kill towers and avoid PVPing pocketed TL5 twinks.

[Armus]

And as I said 500 times before, the TL7-TL5 delta that existed BEFORE people made those 165+ twinks was more than enough to kill any 165 twink, but people made 165 twinks anyways .... their fault.

Here are a few items that tl7 got since then. I'll pick fixer since that is the most popular 207 gank class.

Masterpiece Ancient Combat Tuner off 40
Superior Ancient Combat Tuner off 30
Advanced Ancient Combat Tuner off 30
Masterpiece Ancient Bracer 20 off
Perfected Infused Dust Brigade Bracer off 75
Acquisition (Le perks) FA 80, Burst 80, SMG 110
Envy of the Xan off 15

That's just a few of the items that tl7's got since then. That's 300 extra attack rating right there. Then add the immense extra abilities that enables higher symbiants and ql 300 ai armour AND ofab armour. And the new weapons such as envy which has much better dmg compared to what fixers used then. Oh and let'snot forget FA. Fixers didnt use that at all earlier.

Now.. tl5's also got a few things but the difference is minute compared to what tl7's got. So. yes the power delta did exist when the range was altered last time but it's increased considerably. And that's the point. It's not a small change. It's HUGE. And that's why the game should be altered again, to keep the balance.

The fact that it has only increased since then is irrelevant. Any reasonable player will know that as the game and items evolve, that delta will change.

Great, you won't mind if it changes or "evolves" again then. Because you are reasonable, right?

That fact is just ANOTHER reason to make sensibly leveled twinks for NW that will avoid those deltas,

Yeah that's a great attitude. Let's not fix the unbalance, let's work around it! And let's leave the second largest pvp range dead for years.

No thanks man!

regardless of whether they increase or decrease and FC gives us one very simple rule too allow us to do that. The 'power delta' excuse is just that... an excuse. FC shouldn't be responsible for changes to allow players to act so stupidly with no consequences.

Yes we are aware that yo consider 99% of the playerbase to be stupid.
Personally I think that only proves that you are stupid yourself. The playerbase IS the game. And if they dislike certain parts of it so much that they refuse to do it then the game needs to be changed. Just like they are changing quests that are lame or boring or unbalanced they need to change this.

Depends on what the change is. Personally, I don't lose anything. I haven't rolled twinks past 170. In fact, I would potentially gain the use of my 170 crat and my 165 NT.

Great.

What OTHER people would potentially lose is the use of 200+ twinks they have rolled, that somehow, you think is completely reasonable, even though they aren't doing anything wrong here.

Never said they're doing something wrong. But in this case the need of 99,99% of the playerbase must come before the need of the 0,01%. And in any case, since tl5 nw never ever happens, those 207's stand to lose exactly nothing apart from some bor gank once a month.

I haven't seen a recommendation on how to 'fix' this without invalidating other people's efforts.

That's the point. The 0,01 % weighs less than the 99,99%.

It's worth stating again. Anyone rolling into the TL7 range invalidated their OWN efforts by doing so.

Except that as we have stated over and over again, the tl7's have changed into unstoppable monsters while tl5's barely moved. It's not the same situation. It has to be looked at and changed again to maintain the same balance that we had in 2005 when the ranges were adjusted.

That's a way different situation than FC invalidating your efforts by making range adjustments. Even if FC agrees with you and is willing to change it, what solutions are there?

1. Make it so that you can only ladder 1 TL higher instead of 2? Great, because a 204 twink won't hand you you're ass at 165 just as fast as a 207 will? Please. Be honest.

What it does accomplish is that it flushes out all the current twink killers. It will take a long, long time before you have the same ammount of 204 twinks as we have 207-214's now, if ever.

Secondly 207=mongo rage. That alone makes some instaganking harder.
Thirdly, 204-207 is abotu 100 attack rating alon. Which is quite a bit. But you are unfair when you only compare 204-207. Because you know very well that you only need 174 to face 219's. Or 170 to have to face 214's. And the difference is IMMENSE. That's something you shouldn't just ignore. Even if you'd like to.

The tl cap is by no means a perfect solution, but it's a pretty good one and should be quite easy to implement. It would give tl5 NW a chance to flourish again unless the game completely dies before this happens. Hopefully it will happen because its an incentive for ppl to play the game. And we all know how much the game needs that these days.

2. Cap at 200? That doesn't change anything except the level that people would cap their twinks at to avoid level 200 twinks. another nonsense solution.

3. Some absolute hardcap? Great, so we are back to the same place we were BEFORE FC implemented laddering to 220 where everyone just rolls to the level cap? That's just dumbing down the game and potentially making a range of professions irrelevant, as level caps do quite often in this game.

I don't fancy either of these ideas.

[Obtena]

What it does accomplish is that it flushes out all the current twink killers. It will take a long, long time before you have the same ammount of 204 twinks as we have 207-214's now, if ever.

And that's why again, the conclusion is that this option is completely selfish and unfair. Hell, it doesn't even address the problem of twink killers the whole cause of all this complaining. Are you going to QQ more when those 204's twinks emerges? What then? More of the same stupid ideas? If that's the best you can do, it's better not to waste FC's time, leave it and deal with it.

[Armus]

Like I already said .. the prevalence of 165+ CTs is not enough to justify compromising the whole laddering strategy of NW at a single title level, especially to placate people that bring the pain upon themselves by making dumb level choices for their twinks at the expense of people that have made good level choices. The fairy tale scenarios are interesting, but they aren't really .... real. People aren't coming to TL5 NW with 205 docs and people rarely have the opportunity to place anything BUT a QL 150 CT at a towersite.

Making a 130 level twink isn't a 'fix', it's a natural conclusion for any reasonable NW twinker that wants to kill towers and avoid PVPing pocketed TL5 twinks.

130's are useless because they get eaten by 150-160's so easily.

Oh. And my own org just happens to have a 165 ct and it's doing juuust fine. So i guess they aren't that rate.

130's are also completely sucky because you can't hit ql 100 towers. So the ONLY thing they could be used for is to kill 150-160 ish ct's. Gl geting more than a few ppl on each server to roll those!

O wait. We already KNOW that noone rolls those.

Your awesome "strategy" is a complete fail. Sorry.

[Obtena]

130's are useless because they get eaten by 150-160's so easily.

Oh. And my own org just happens to have a 165 ct and it's doing juuust fine. So i guess they aren't that rate.

130's are also completely sucky because you can't hit ql 100 towers. So the ONLY thing they could be used for is to kill 150-160 ish ct's. Gl geting more than a few ppl on each server to roll those!

O wait. We already KNOW that noone rolls those.

Your awesome "strategy" is a complete fail. Sorry.

That's a nice story, but it's not changing what I have said here. A group of 130's avoids pocketed TL5's and no, they aren't eaten alive by 150's and 160's. And also because 150 Ct's are so rare too right? On wait, they aren't. Finally, show me someone that have a 160 twink in the first place that pwn the 130 so much. Those must be hiding in the bushes with your 205 doctors too right?

Gratz on your 165 CT, you got lucky. I love the irony that you are complaining about no TL5 tower wars because of TL7 support, yet you placed a 165 CT to force your opponents into having to deal with and bring their own TL7 support. Just keep on QQing about TL7's in TL5 NW. You deserve it because you are part of the problem. It's always going to be up to the players to apply the strategies they want to win. YOu have chosen AVOIDING a war by your placement of a 165 tower. You perpetuate the need for Tl7 involvement by your choices in tower and CT QL, then you have absolutely no moral standing for QQing about it.

[Armus]

And that's why again, the conclusion is that this option is completely selfish and unfair.

Yes putting the needs of 99,99% of the population before the needs of 0,01% is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo selfish.



C'mon man. This is just way WAY out there, even for you.

You want to penalize the players that are abiding by the rules by making their twinks obsolete to buy some fun TL5 time

Oh play the worlds smallest violin will you?
That's exactly what I want. I have to tell you man, you're trying to make us feel sorry for the few ppl that are crashing everyone elses fun and in doing so reducing everyones fun into nothingness. I can't speak for others but I can assure you it's not working for me. Not at all.

before a new crop of 204's twinks would emerge. That's not a fix at all.

It's not a fix if you are demanding that it is to solve the problem to 100% FOREVER. But it would take care of most of the problems, and for quite some time.

You tell us that the whole tl5 community should go as far as rolling special twinks that are only good for 150-160 ct's, yet when we ask for the minute twink killer population to adjust as well then it's COMPLETELY unthinkable and horrific in your opinion.

How you expect to get away with such inconsequent reasoning I don't know.

But then again, you don't.

[Obtena]

You tell us that the whole tl5 community should go as far as rolling special twinks that are only good for 150-160 ct's, yet when we ask for the minute twink killer population to adjust as well then it's COMPLETELY unthinkable and horrific in your opinion.

Making them obsolete is not an 'adjustment'. Now your just being ridiculous. Ironically, you want them to 'adjust' by rerolling but when it's suggested you could do the same (and mind you, in shorter time and cost), it's completely unthinkable and horrific in your opinion. Oh see how that argument works both ways? No, I guess you don't. Those twink killers aren't a minute 0.01% of the population ... if they were that small as you would like us to believe, then they wouldn't have that big an impact on your TL5 wars. You are exaggerating.

And yes, I'm demanding it be fixed 100% forever, otherwise it's just a waste of everyone's time (as well as having to listen to you on the forums QQing about it even more the second time).

That's exactly what I want.

Glad you admit you could care less about the people that are using the game rules to their advantage. If this ever becomes a topic for FC to consider, this will make a great reference to influence that decision. It makes it so much clearer what your position is on the matter. Now, if you had some less self-serving interests, you might actually be believable.

[Armus]

. A group of 130's avoids pocketed TL5's and no, they aren't eaten alive by 150's and 160's.

Why don't you bring a group of 130's to test and I'll bring a group of 150 ish toons. And let's see how it goes then, shall we? Y

Show me someone that have a 160 twink in the first place. Those must be hiding in the bushes with your 205 doctors too right?

I have a 164 advie myself. I know plenty of 160 ish traders that are active. regarding the doctors I wouldn't know. I've never even mentioned one.

Gratz on your 165 CT, you got lucky. I love the irony that you are complaining about no TL5 towers, yet you placed a 165 CT to force your opponents into having to deal with your TL7 support.

Actually the only reason that was planted was that we were out of 160-164 ct's.

Just keep on QQing about TL7's in TL5 NW. You deserve it because you are part of the problem.

Really? Me, the guy who has twinks of every imaginable level and also owns towers of every level who's only wish is for tl5 NW to ever happen is part of the problem?

That's just laughable, even for you. We have suggested solutions for a problem that you aren't denying and you aren't denying that the plausible cause of the problem we are suggesting either. What you ARE saying is that the needs of 0,01% of the population are more important than the rest. Even if the result is no fun for all of us.

Now that's just sad.

[Obtena]

Why don't you bring a group of 130's to test and I'll bring a group of 150 ish toons. And let's see how it goes then, shall we? Y

Sure, see you on Newland hill. How many you bringing?

Really? Me, the guy who has twinks of every imaginable level and also owns towers of every level who's only wish is for tl5 NW to ever happen is part of the problem?

Yeah, sad isn't it? You don't even realize it. I bet you weren't even thinking on what awesome fun 207 twinks would have kicking over your 165 CT when you placed it because you were so consumed by your grief on how bad TL7 twinks make it for TL5 NW right? What a bunch of absolute hypocrisy. CLASSIC.

[Armus]

Making them obsolete is not an 'adjustment'.

Are you saying they couldn't adjust or adapt to something else? Like.. for instance fighting toons that aren't 35 levels lowerall the time? They still work for that purpose you know.

Now your just being ridiculous. Ironically, you want them to 'adjust' by rerolling

Except I never said that at all. You are just trying to make that up to make it suit you. if these changes were to be implemented these guys can fight other toons nearer their own level.

That is if their microscopic balls allow them to fight on equal terms.

but when it's suggested you could do the same (and mind you, in shorter time and cost), it's completely unthinkable and horrific in your opinion.

No, your reasoning is yet again completely flawed. We ARE talking about tl5 towers here. It's very logical to assume that tl5 toons should be able to kill these tl5 towers. It is not reasonable to allow such imbalances that a vast majority of tl5 should be unplayable outside BS.

Oh see how that argument works both ways?

Except it didn't, at all.

No, I guess you don't. Those twink killers aren't a minute 0.01% of the population ... if they were that small as you would like us to believe, then they wouldn't have that big an impact on your TL5 wars. You are exaggerating.

The dedicated twink killers are indeed as few as I said. There are however plenty leveling toons that will turn up as well, with corresponging pockets. Not usually the leveling toons of pvm'ers but well equipped leveling toons of die hard pvp'ers. And these are next to unstopable in that situation.
These ppl didn't really put any effort into their toons. They just get their autowins because they are into shadowlevels and because they bring pockets. And they destroy tl5 NW in the process.

And yes, I'm demanding it be fixed 100% forever, otherwise it's just a waste of everyone's time (as well as having to listen to you on the forums QQing about it even more the second time).

Good luck fixing anything in life. It's never ever perfect for everyone. It's just not possible. What you try to do is to make it as good as possible for the most possible.

I would rather fix 80% of the problem than 0%. But hey, I'm probably being unreasonable in that, right?

Glad you admit to being selfish. It makes it so much clearer what your position is on the matter. Now, if you had some less self-serving interests, you might actually be believable.

Yes I do admit it openly. I do want tl5 nw to happen. I don't want a few ppl on each server to kill it completely. I want fun and action for the masses.

If you think that makes me the selfish on then all I can say to you is seek help.
You serious have issues.

[Obtena]

Except I never said that at all. You are just trying to make that up to make it suit you. if these changes were to be implemented these guys can fight other toons nearer their own level.

Now your being facetious. You know full well no one would make twinks in their level range if laddering rules were adjusted, because they wouldn't need to. Nor would anyone keep a 207 twink if someone did because of the minimal power delta from 165 up to a level they could hit with a 220 anyways. You're so transparent.

Good luck fixing anything in life. It's never ever perfect for everyone. It's just not possible. What you try to do is to make it as good as possible for the most possible.

Not at the expense of those that abide by the rules you don't.

[Armus]

Sure, see you on Newland hill. How many you bringing?

I guess we shall have to see. It's something that will take a while to arrange,

Yeah, sad isn't it? You don't even realize it. I bet you weren't even thinking on what awesome fun 207 twinks would have kicking over your 165 CT when you placed it because you were so consumed by your grief on how bad TL7 twinks make it for TL5 NW right? CLASSIC.

Well this shows quite well how uninformed you are. 207 twinks are excellent in a defensive situation for killing tl5's because they are allowed to choose when to fight. But they are useless for killing towers simply because a group of 220's will obliterate them in seconds. How can you not know that?

[Obtena]

Well this shows quite well how uninformed you are. 207 twinks are excellent in a defensive situation for killing tl5's because they are allowed to choose when to fight. But they are useless for killing towers simply because a group of 220's will obliterate them in seconds. How can you not know that?

How can you not say the same thing for people bringing 220s to an attack with those 207's as well? I'm not stupid thanks. 207's are good for ANY situation where their is someone or thing can instasplat, including your 165 CT and with 220 support, you just turned a TL5 NW situation into one that doesn't need TL5 twinks. Awesome. As the crusader for TL5 NW twinks rights, you just created the ULTIMATE non-TL5 twink, TL5 NW situation, whether you are attacking or defending. Simply epic.

[Armus]

Now your being facetious. You know full well no one would make twinks in their level range if laddering rules were adjusted, because they wouldn't need to.

Ofcourse they wouldn't. Because then these sissies wouldn't have the huge advantage they need to play.

Nor would anyone keep a 207 twink if someone did because of the minimal power delta from 165 up to a level they could hit with a 220 anyways.

So? Worst case scenario, if they aren't happy bashing the brand new 200 twinks around then they can just level up.

The point is: we're talking about tl5 nw. Tl5 nw should be fought and won by tl5's.
Not by tl7'sor tl4's. Otherwise the whole idea of limited level ranges is pointless.

Not at the expense of those that abide by the rules you don't.

Err. FC changed the rules when they adjusted the ranges last time and they do so ALL the time whenever they change how anything in game works. It's their right to do whatever they want with the game. It's their right to keep it the way it is if they want to. And it's their right to asjust the ranges again if they want to.

Arguing that they can't make changes in their own game is lolworthy and you know it.

[Armus]

How can you not say the same thing for people bringing 220s to an attack with those 207's as well? I'm not stupid thanks. 207's are good for ANY situation where their is someone or thing can instasplat, including your 165 CT and with 220 support, you just turned a TL5 NW situation into one that doesn't need TL5 twinks. Awesome. As the crusader for TL5 NW twinks rights, you just created the ULTIMATE non-TL5 twink, TL5 NW situation, whether you are attacking or defending. Simply epic.

You just don't get it, do you? I've never claimed to NOT bring or use tl7's in tl5 NW myself. Although we usually at least start out with tl5's and continue that way if possible. Tl7's are a last resort for us.

Are we clear on that? Because it's geting tiresome to repeat and explain everything to you.

Now... Ofcourse I would much rather see a tl5 battle at a tl5 ct. But you can't expect me to bring 165's to kill 207's. That would be exceedingly retarded even for you.

*pause*

You know, if the ranges were adjusted as I suggested there would be no 207's hitting it. It would have to be taken down by tl5's. And we would bring tl5 defenders. And VOILA, it's tl5 NW!!

[agentwolve]

Funcom currently want = Tl5 wars is decided by tl 7

Everyone wants = Tl5 wars tp be decided by tl5

Obtena wants = Tl5 wars to be decided by tl4-7


Can anyone pick the option that is most sensible ?