Please change 175-214 bs to 151-200

[blingoutyourdead]

No one is saying that you as a twink would not have an advantage. What we are saying is your instant I WIN button is discouraging pvp.

To be fair, aren't people who are seriously playing MMOs for straight up pvp just going to go for the much newer ones with proper ladders and all, instead of an aging and rather bizarre grindfest / sex chat line which has never had viable pvp mechanics since its outset? This myth that any serious "pvp" player would spend more than thirty seconds playing AO is beyond silly, given their other choices in the market today.

FC, for what it's worth, does seem to have a viable concept of what ACTUAL pvp players want in pvp mechanics, as shown by the beta for this new arena game they were pushing a while back. Even if they had to buy a clue on pvp by just snapping up a smaller company, it's clear that they do understand the concept of viable pvp on some level. They just have no intention, and no ability really, given the framework of this game, to ever implement that concept within AO.

Sure, AO "pvp" only appeals to people who think racking up 5,000 hours of /played grinding phatz constitutes actual skill, and no, AO is never going to have actual, viable pvp mechanics. But what does it matter? The main (only) appeal of this game has always been, and always will be, the endless twiddling and twinking. When you get right down to it, the only actual interesting thing to do in this game is building new toons. And once they're built, the only thing they're useful for is . . . building more toons. Which is fine. Some game has to fill that niche, so it might as well be AO.

[Obtena]

No one is saying that you as a twink would not have an advantage. What we are saying is your instant I WIN button is discouraging pvp. There should be no way someone who spends as much time on their character as most people do should be killed in 10 seconds or less, and usually less no matter what technique they use other than spending more hours gathering gear.

If you are the type of gamer that gets his rocks off killing people with no chance of retaliation, then maybe you are the problem and not a symptom.

The future of the game is at stake, if you want more people playing you need to understand FC is obligated to making pvp last longer with a more balanced and sensible system. The current state is exclusive.

You haven't made the right connections there. I don't see the IWIN buttons you are referring too for anything by TL7 PVP. I do see people that twinked for PVP having an optimized toolset to kill others in PVP. Notice that the rebalance isn't focusing at the detail of individual items. It's a holistic approach ... making the tools that exist work properly and adjustments to general attributes.

Your labeling of the type of player that gets rocks off killing others isn't very realistic either. What you are seeing is a breed of player that is looking for opponents worthy to PVP. If that means cutting down swaths of gimps that are in their way to find those opponents, then that's not the fault of the type of gamer you are referring to. The people that are looking for that challenge tend to ignore the gimps if they have to choose targets. Those players you are referring to don't play AO to look for greys to kill to boost their kill counts. That's boring and stupid and would only appeal to the simpleminded, that's not the archetypical AO PVPer. The game mechanics to builkd those characters actually prevent it. No simpleminded fool would stick around for the time needed to build such a character.

In a game where a significant amount of your character's capabilities come from non-level locked gear, the result is exactly as you see it ... high QL gear driven characters played by experienced players mowing down everyone else that isn't. And that's the only way it can be unless FC decide to start level locking most items. The kind of PVP game you are envisioning for AO isn't going to happen.

[Cyberleet]

Sure, AO "pvp" only appeals to people who think racking up 5,000 hours of /played grinding phatz constitutes actual skill

Hehe, yeh...shorten the grinds plz!

Also shorten down some quests that I do not ever wanna do again, just give me a trip around scheol and end it. Heh.

and no, AO is never going to have actual, viable pvp mechanics.

I disagree, AO has imo one of the best game-mechanics.

It's just that it's so old and developers needs to be more creative.

In a game where a significant amount of your character's capabilities come from non-level locked gear, the result is exactly as you see it ... high QL gear driven characters played by experienced players mowing down everyone else that isn't. And that's the only way it can be unless FC decide to start level locking most items. The kind of PVP game you are envisioning for AO isn't going to happen.

They had an idea for that...OFAB (intended as noob-armor but became yet another grind armor for experienced players ) and mechs! The combat, abilities and mech-interface (controls) was implemented so horrible that it's useless to go pvp in one.

Same with the anti-mech combat...they gave it 1 (one) animation and long attack-rate. Done.

How lazy! But anyway, there's the concept.

Also; There is tripples, GTH's, AS, RI, challenger + a wtf perk-alpha, the soldier/adv profession...hope rebalance makes the professions be more like themselfs at all ranges with the actual abilities the description in combat.

[Deskclerk]

To be fair, aren't people who are seriously playing MMOs for straight up pvp just going to go for the much newer ones with proper ladders and all, instead of an aging and rather bizarre grindfest / sex chat line which has never had viable pvp mechanics since its outset? This myth that any serious "pvp" player would spend more than thirty seconds playing AO is beyond silly, given their other choices in the market today.

This is kinda exactly my point.... You may have stated it better, and more bitter than i have. hence we have empty BS.

FC, for what it's worth, does seem to have a viable concept of what ACTUAL pvp players want in pvp mechanics, as shown by the beta for this new arena game they were pushing a while back. Even if they had to buy a clue on pvp by just snapping up a smaller company, it's clear that they do understand the concept of viable pvp on some level. They just have no intention, and no ability really, given the framework of this game, to ever implement that concept within AO.

Oh i disagree, I think they recognize the issue, I think they are trying to change the culture of wtfpwnu before your root recharges pvp. I think the people with no intentions are the ones who prefer pvp as it is.

Sure, AO "pvp" only appeals to people who think racking up 5,000 hours of /played grinding phatz constitutes actual skill,

And you do not see this as a problem? FC should. It hurts them financially in player retention. See, something you must realize is this game was created when penalization was the way to treat your player base The mentality of that time was: get em hooked, make it take forever to achieve their goal and that will equate to longer subscription cycles. I truly believe the management of FC understand the difference of the gaming environment. The only true issue they have in moving forward in evolving the game is whiny liitle crybabies who want too hold onto their IWIN button with the excuse "its not my fault every player doesn't have 5000 hours to twink their toon"

and no, AO is never going to have actual, viable pvp mechanics. But what does it matter? The main (only) appeal of this game has always been, and always will be, the endless twiddling and twinking. When you get right down to it, the only actual interesting thing to do in this game is building new toons. And once they're built, the only thing they're useful for is . . . building more toons. Which is fine. Some game has to fill that niche, so it might as well be AO.

I do not know what game you play, but the very idea of leveling new toons to be viable, consisting of xp/sk/axp/research is not an enjoyable encounter. It is something people who truly enjoy the game MUST ENDURE. The point is most of the people playing this game choose not too. This is why the current game/business model must and is being changed.

Stating FC will never succeed in making the game more viable for most players to spend their time in, well shows how little faith and hope you have for a game i assume you enjoy and should be wishing the best for.

[Deskclerk]

No simpleminded fool would stick around for the time needed to build such a character.

This is exactly my point except i would phrase it differntly with out insulting the 1000s who have already done this I would fix it by stating:

No reasonably minded person would stick around for the time needed to build such a character.

This is why you fight the same 20 people in bs or bor everyday. See the problem?

In a game where a significant amount of your character's capabilities come from non-level locked gear, the result is exactly as you see it ... high QL gear driven characters played by experienced players mowing down everyone else that isn't. And that's the only way it can be unless FC decide to start level locking most items. The kind of PVP game you are envisioning for AO isn't going to happen.

Another simple bandaid fix that is not a fix at all, please we have enough issues with band aid fixes as is:

1) Half dmg, full healing
2) Range nerf
3) OE rule
4) Dmg cap
5) Crowd control at towers

And i am just listing the ones that effect pvp.

[blingoutyourdead]

It hurts them financially in player retention.

No it doesn't. Ninety-nine of one-hundred people I know in-game that play hardcore, day in and day out, could give a crap about pvp. They ENDURE pvp when they have to in order to get something done for their toons, and then they go back to playing the aspects of the game that they like. The players who pay the bills and actually play the game, rather than forum camping 24x7, could give a crap about pvp one way or the other. And nobody who actually wants to play a game for nonstop, hardcore, fun pvp would EVER choose AO.

[Deskclerk]

No it doesn't. Ninety-nine of one-hundred people I know in-game that play hardcore, day in and day out, could give a crap about pvp. They ENDURE pvp when they have to in order to get something done for their toons, and then they go back to playing the aspects of the game that they like. The players who pay the bills and actually play the game, rather than forum camping 24x7, could give a crap about pvp one way or the other. And nobody who actually wants to play a game for nonstop, hardcore, fun pvp would EVER choose AO.

You make my point very well for me.

maybe they would not hate PVP so much if they didn't get wtfpwndead in 2 secs. Ignoring pvp as a means of player retention is as ignorant as ignoring pvm.

[blingoutyourdead]

Ignoring pvp as a means of player retention is as ignorant as ignoring pvm.

Dozens of successful MMOs that do pvp with ZERO pvm content say otherwise. The more ignorant thing is thinking that a game "has" to do both in order to engage and retain a solid base. Most players want one thing or the other, and they choose games accordingly. The truly good (and hugely successful) games do one thing or the other and do what they do extremely well. AO does one thing well, but it's never been one thing that appeals to a really huge base of players. It's not a great pvm game, and it's never been a viable pvp game. It has its core though, and they've stuck around. And it will never become pvp competitive in today's market without throwing out 99% of the pvm content, which for a true pvp player is just an endless annoying distraction.

[Deskclerk]

Dozens of successful MMOs that do pvp with ZERO pvm content say otherwise. The more ignorant thing is thinking that a game "has" to do both in order to engage and retain a solid base. Most players want one thing or the other, and they choose games accordingly. The truly good (and hugely successful) games do one thing or the other and do what they do extremely well. AO does one thing well, but it's never been one thing that appeals to a really huge base of players. It's not a great pvm game, and it's never been a viable pvp game. It has its core though, and they've stuck around. And it will never become pvp competitive in today's market without throwing out 99% of the pvm content, which for a true pvp player is just an endless annoying distraction.

It almost seems that you are trying to make the argument to do away with pvp altogether?

Fortunately for many paying customers this will never happen for this game. The idea is to appeal to as many people as possible on a broad spectrum. I don't see any one arguing to remove from the game what you enjoy, why would you do so against that for others?

[Cyberleet]

Oh, AO has had a pretty big core-group of pvp-players for a looong time

[blingoutyourdead]

It almost seems that you are trying to make the argument to do away with pvp altogether?

AO will never compete with real pvp games, so trying to "fix" it for pvp is pretty pointless. If it stays in as it is, or in some other form, or goes away, it's not going to matter much either way in how long the game as a whole lasts. Focusing significant resources on hitting a target that can't be hit would be pretty dumb, especially for a company with limited resources. If FC wants to keep AO going for a while longer, then they should focus on what it does (and can) do well, which is not pvp. Taking pvp out is probably more trouble than it's worth at this point, but trying to make it work truly well (in the context of what a "good pvp game" means in today's market) is just a fool's errand.

[Obtena]

No reasonably minded person would stick around for the time needed to build such a character.

This is why you fight the same 20 people in bs or bor everyday. See the problem?

Yet people in AO do it for PVP and PVM. So those players in AO is are unreasonably minded people? Every player that makes PVP twinks and builds completed endgame characters for PVM are unreasonable? That's a rather stupid comment because I don't think people twinking in AO correlates to unreasonableness. I for one don't think it's a problem because I don't think it's unreasonable to twink to achieve the highest levels of performance. I don't think that PVP in this game will ever appeal to the broadest spectrum of players and I don't think it should either ... most people don't play it to PVP and most people are doomed to mediocrity anyways ... why should those that wish to PVP suffer for accommodating those vaugely interested people anyways? It would be stupid to make AO PVP more accessible to people that couldn't be bothered with doing it in the first place. If you want to compete in anything, the bar is always set by the highest performers. PVP in AO is no exception. Does that make it unreasonable that those players are forced to do that? No more unreasonable than those same players being 'forced' to do any of the other game content to get things they want.

Your point is purely cyclical anyways. The 99% of people in AO that don't like to PVP are leaving AO because PVP is not accessible to them? Sorry, they just don't care. Even if AO PVP was the best, you still wouldn't see hundreds of people in Borealis PVPing .... it takes an exceptional amount of PVM content to build a twink ... ANY twink and most people are simply too lazy to twink to the levels needed vs. the hardest content in the game; PVP. Hence my comment that AO doesn't tend to attract the kind of player that doesn't have the mental fortitude to do it.

[techprince]

I suggest to implemented ingame polling system NOW !.

[Obtena]

They had an idea for that...OFAB (intended as noob-armor but became yet another grind armor for experienced players ) and mechs! The combat, abilities and mech-interface (controls) was implemented so horrible that it's useless to go pvp in one.

Well, I won't speculate on why mechs/turrets were introduced. It certainly does give non-twink oriented content and for those interested in maintaining their tower sites, it's an option. It's not really horribly implemented but I do think that a rocklpaperscissor approach should have been maintained there so there is a way for twinked characters to take out mechs and turrets on foot without swapping gear.

I don't think OFAB was ever intended as noob-armor because it's not ... it's endgame armor (or end-level). Actually, I can't see any reason it was implemented at all. It's marginally better than AI armor in some cases, worse in the rest and it's not a noob-friendly way to obtain it. I'm pretty sure that it was meant as THE end-game armor. The stats simply don't reflect it.

[Cyberleet]

It's not really horribly implemented

Come on, same old specials and almost no abilities.

I do think that a rocklpaperscissor approach should have been maintained there so there is a way for twinked characters to take out mechs and turrets on foot without swapping gear.

We need scythe-options + mechs should be able to do more stuff.

I don't think OFAB was ever intended as noob-armor because it's not ...

It was, read the official interviews.

And it's exactly what it is too, tier4 if you will. AI-armor is still the best armor in the game, kinda.

it's not a noob-friendly way to obtain it.

Yeah, this is where they failed miserably in meeting the target-group.

I'm pretty sure that it was meant as THE end-game armor.

And why are you sure of that? Read the FAQ's leading to LE.

Something they wanted with LE was shortening the gap between players, which didn't go too well altho some stuff were great.

[doctorzoidbyrg]

ao pvp mechanics are fairly complicated... but i guess you're right, you could boil them down to who has spent more time gearing and twinking....

but you can do that to any competitive game, ever. FPS game? well hes better because he spent more time practicing his aim. RTS? He learned more strategies because he spent more time.

trying to say that AO isnt a "real" pvp game is dumb. Theres players. Theres combat. It's real. Infact, its real enough that you can't figure out how to do good in it.

[memph]

This is seriously stupid...
Some ppl lvl'd there 170 twinked toons cause of the 1st time the bs lvl ranges made it so that there bs close to never was active.
But now some months later there changing it again. Cause some ppl complain about it... and ppl that lvl'd there toons just have to either reroll there toons again to have a active bs again.
Seriously stop changing lvl ranges everytime you feel like it. Ppl are bitching bout how OP it is, BS was still made to PVP in and maybe to get your daily fast and easy. I just dont get how ppl that got pvm toons go bitching about how they get raped by high lvl's. While there aint even builded there toons to pvp with.

[Obtena]

No, what's is seriously stupid is that people don't have patience to see what will happen AND that they can't understand why this was changed. The people that leveled to take advantage of the optimal BS levels still have that optimization.

[-yeny-]

this change wont make a difference imo...it adds lvl175-200 to that bs-range....srsly how many 175-200 chars are there that join the bs now and how usefull is a 175-200 char? the range will be still dead i think. they would have to add 150s to that range to get it working again...

[Obtena]

^^ No, the range is 151-200 and 201-214. That range will be as busy as any other. The old TL5 twinks as well as S7 and leveling people ... the pool of people that can participate there should be enough to ensure that it runs. Still, people that have 207 and 214 twinks don't have to do anything different. Some might quit because they don't actually want to compete against twinks their level but that's besides the point.