Rebalancing part eleventy: shopfood

[quieter456]

But I don't think one person could realistically go through one item type by themselves. There must be in the region of hundreds of individual weapons with their own sub-types at different ql ranges. Xyphos.com lists 1,643 entries under weapons that require pistol.

True and not true. For instance there are about 10 database entries for the pistol commonly known as the Jess at different QLs. Which means there might just be 160 weapons (or somewhere in between those). The person making changes only really needs to determine the damage and mods at ql1 and 200, the rest should be interpolated yes? (ofc no one knows hows fc's database really works, not even fc)

Besides which, having volunteers go through 1600 weapons is still faster than having FC do nothing, and not all weapons will require changes.

[Zeephonz]

I'll fix the Shock Trooper Muffin

[Redesine]

True and not true. For instance there are about 10 database entries for the pistol commonly known as the Jess at different QLs. Which means there might just be 160 weapons (or somewhere in between those). The person making changes only really needs to determine the damage and mods at ql1 and 200, the rest should be interpolated yes? (ofc no one knows hows fc's database really works, not even fc)

Besides which, having volunteers go through 1600 weapons is still faster than having FC do nothing, and not all weapons will require changes.

Yeah, that's what I meant by "sub-types".

And yeah god knows how it really works... but I think, though, that each of those entries would have to be modified because they are seperate in the database and it doesn't seem like anything really links them. With the Jess as an example.

If I took the ql1 version:
Second-Hand Old English Trading Co.
and modified it from 5-6 to (say) 6-20 damage and then took the ql 200 version:
O.E.T. Co. Maharanee
and changed the damage from 20-150 to (say) 75-300... Then I think the ql199 version:
O.E.T. Co. Pelastio V3
would still be 20-149.

No idea if that's how it really works, it's just how it seems to me. I think it has all those different entries because the int/psy modifiers can't be interpolated.

On the other hand, auno managed to find the links between those items because you can set the ql of the Second-Hand Old English Trading Co. to 200 and it returns O.E.T. Co. Maharanee. Equally, it's listed only as Maharanee in the equipment config.

Does anyone know if that was done manually or it it a feature of the items db?

Either way, certainly faster to let the community go through it. It's a great idea. I'd do it even if I did have to go through 1,649 pages.

[Lliers]

I think its doable using a simple algorithm.

Start by assigning a score to every weapon. Here's a possible example scoring system:

( damage per second X skill points buffed (adjusted, of course, like implants, base ability buffs are worth more and AC's are worth less) X number of procs on the weapon) / number of skill points required to equip the weapon

Those rare sought-out weapons that everyone actually uses should set the upper limit on the scores for each weapon class.

Now compute the score for all the shop food weapons. If the score is less than 75% of the the other score, then the damage should be increased until the score comes up. At the bottom of the scale should be all weapons that can be bought somewhere (shops/SL vendors). The middle should be rollable weapons, and the top rare ones (dyna loot).

[Redesine]

I think its doable using a simple algorithm.

Start by assigning a score to every weapon. Here's a possible example scoring system:

( damage per second X skill points buffed (adjusted, of course, like implants, base ability buffs are worth more and AC's are worth less) X number of procs on the weapon) / number of skill points required to equip the weapon

Those rare sought-out weapons that everyone actually uses should set the upper limit on the scores for each weapon class.

Now compute the score for all the shop food weapons. If the score is less than 75% of the the other score, then the damage should be increased until the score comes up. At the bottom of the scale should be all weapons that can be bought somewhere (shops/SL vendors). The middle should be rollable weapons, and the top rare ones (dyna loot).

It's a nice idea but...

I think something like this should only be used as a very rough theoretical test after you've modified the values to see if you've developed something that doesn't fit into approptiate power levels.

The issue is that there are far more values on a weapon to take into consideration than DPS, buffs and procs. Clip size, range, which inits apply, reload time, equip time, whether you favour attack or recharge speed, where AR comes from, AR cap, defence skills... all are important factors.

Some of these are quite subjective, including procs in particular. So I don't think a formula should be used to create a weapon, rather to test the weapon before submitting it to FC.

[quieter456]

I saw this was mentioned in Q&A part 5. While I agree a player should be intelligent enough to look at a weapon and decide if it's better than what they have, many of these shopfood items have no redeeming qualities at all, and that can be easily remedied with free labor.

It's not too late FC!

[Xirayne]

It breaks my heart to see so many interesting items and weapons left as nothing but shopfood and junk. Bump for making at least some of them, if not all of them viable in some way or another.
I would also like to mention that I'd rather go through and rebalance every weapon ingame myself than see them removed.
I'd definitely love to help if at all possible

[Cogline]

/BUMP! It'd be an epic task but worth it. Not only would players get to feel more involved but it would be fantastic to hole up somewhere while healing, trawl through your loot and think "Blimey! I need this!" rather than "More shopfood. Yawn." Some useful bracers would be nice too.

[Litestrider]

I'd volunteer to do shotguns, but I wouldn't be able to resist the urge to suggest they all become 1-2(3000) or so.

That being the case, bump.

[Lusos101]

Lets stop the bs here. Not knowing the exact mechanisms of how damage works and with an almost guaranteed risk of having a few idiots creating insanelly overpowered weapons this suggestion has about 0% chance of going anywhere.

OTOH making a few adjustments that would allow a few more weapons and armors to become at least marginally useful doesnt seem to be much work. And it certainly is more important then new playfields, rebalances or new engines. Imagine a new player going into the subway and comming out of it with a reasonably equipped toon. Im sure he would be much happier with the game and willing to continue p(l)aying then having an awsomelly awsome looking toon that cant kill anything.

Dunno, but seems logical or something.

{Editted by Haquihana - I removed your stealthy profanity for you}

[Litestrider]

Lets stop the bs here. Not knowing the exact mechanisms of how damage works and with an almost guaranteed risk of having a few idiots creating insanelly overpowered weapons this suggestion has about 0% chance of going anywhere.

OTOH making a few adjustments that would allow a few more weapons and armors to become at least marginally useful doesnt seem to be much work. And it certainly is more important then new playfields, rebalances or new engines. Imagine a new player going into the subway and comming out of it with a reasonably equipped toon. Im sure he would be much happier with the game and willing to continue p(l)aying then having an awsomelly awsome looking toon that cant kill anything.

Dunno, but seems logical or something.

{Editted by Haquihana - I removed your stealthy profanity for you}

I'd personally really like to see them take the idea behind the -000 weapon lines, and run with it. If they implemented and balanced that idea well enough, with varied weapon stats and requirements, it could actually properly replace the current, shopfood-clogged loot tables and make every single gun useful to some degree, without getting rid of peoples' favorite niche weapons.

[Hanavald]

Honestly, why bother?

Just delete the junk from the database and fill shops with well known useful froob weapons.

Div 9 for Soldiers, Yatamutchy for Agents, SOL Fire Executioner for melee Advs, SOL K-91 Monsters for pistol users, and so on, the list can usually be found on profession forums in some outdated guide.

Also, the q50 RK weapons ( Pump Master, Redline Grenade Launcher, Barret R-06 A-M Sniper and so on, every profession has one) should be all available from profession questlines. Make a long quest chain on Newbie Island with those weapons as final reward.

Yes, game will be simplified a bit.
No, world wont end.

[Louderer789]

Si senor.

[Notcrattey]

1st level Ninja Tanto
Equip time 2s
Attack time 0.5s
Recharge time 0.5s
Range 2 m
Damage 150-300 (250) - Melee AC

User Piercing >= 912 and
User Sneak attack >= 457 and
User Fast attack >= 457
----------------------------------------------------
Acroblade of Eternal Glory
Equip time 1s
Attack time 1.5s
Recharge time 1.2s
Range 3 m
Damage 190-290 (350) - Melee AC
Attack rating cap 1600
Initiative skill Physical init
Martial arts 600
Multi melee 500

User Martial arts >= 1050 and
User Piercing >= 550 and
User Brawl >= 400 and
User Dimach >= 234
------------------------------------------------------------
Grandmaster Click Stabber
Equip time 1s
Attack time 0.2s
Recharge time 0.2s
Range 2 m
Damage 250-275 (150) - Melee AC
Attack rating cap 1600
Initiative skill Melee init
Martial arts 750
Mass 0.4kg
Multi melee 590

To Equip User Martial arts >= 947 and
User Piercing >= 578
-------------------------------------------------------------
Aleksander's Blooded Punchknife
Equip time 1s
Attack time 1.3s
Recharge time 1.1s
Range 3 m
Damage 210-425 (275) - Melee AC
Attack rating cap 2300
Initiative skill Melee init
Martial arts 900

To Equip User Expansion sets & Alien Invasion and
User Piercing >= 1701 and
User Fast attack >= 851

On Equip User Modify Max health 200
User Modify Dodge ranged 20
User Modify Evade Close 20
User Modify Concealment 20
-------------------------------------------------------------
Senior Assault Partizan
Equip time 8s
Attack time 1.2s
Recharge time 1.3s
Range 7 m
Damage 250-650 (250) - Melee AC
Attack rating cap 1800
Initiative skill Melee init

User Piercing >= 1612 and
User Sneak Attack >= 700
User Fast Attack >= 500
------------------------------------------------------------------


liek dis?

[Towerblock]

I'll take shotguns for 300, Alex.

[Ciex]

Ive leveled an engi up to lvl 150 and reset him into heavy weapons, started twinking but couldnt get a full set of armor without 1 research line so i couldnt equip my weapon. Ive searched entire database for an alternative i could use to finish my research and coulndt find even one. Everything has up to 9s attack/recharge time, combined attack rating, some items are melee (???) instead of ranged ...

Bump, altho i think in some departments (especially pistol) we are fine already. I really dont want to see mid level AS pistol. In fact i d like to have tl7 one removed.

[Mordo]

Blizzard does this all the time. A prime example of performing active maintenance.

[Metafly7]

Pretty decent idea to redo all those weapons that have no use anymore, but i wouldnt really trust it to everyone in the community to do it, and definitely not scattered all over the place. It wouldnt be balanced out at all

But besides the trust in an x ammount of ppl doing random changes, it would help newcomers to stay in the game. Its extremely sucky to keep on dying all the time if ur new and dont know what weapons to choose. Being able to improve ur Noob island weapon all the way up would also maybe be nice, it wouldnt be great damage but atleast u can rely on stuff. Being able to quest for upgrading it would also make it more fun

[Louderer789]

i wouldnt really trust it to everyone in the community to do it, and definitely not scattered all over the place. It wouldnt be balanced out at all

As opposed to the awesome job being done so far?

[Metafly7]

So far its lived 10 years, so it cant be that bad, just that the players theyve gathered over the years do tend to get a bit worn out over things, happens to every game. So new blood would be the way to go and this suggestion might be part of it. Commerce is another big part, because ppl arent going to look for old games to play, so present it as new or renewed atleast.

Ive enjoyed it alot over the years, maybe you didnt but imo theyve done a pretty decent job already. And no definitely i dont trust every single player out there to make it work better, it would be "Anarchy (yeh wordplay)" and crash asap