Friday with Means - August 19th, 2011 - Progress

[Mastablasta]

I don't mean to be rude Masta, but I disagree with just about your entire post.


AO is (or at least was at some point) a sandbox MMO, not in the same category as all the streamlined online rpgs we've been seeing lately, I think of a slightly structured game, that has a billion levels and another billion things to do, almost never ending game experience. It was perfect for hard core players, had generated missions that suited casual players, plenty for all. (I actually remember reading that in a review before I signed up for AO years back.) The goal is(was) not to "get to the end level and end equip" but to simply participate, observe, enjoy the beauty of a well crafted game, like a work of art. "Art is never finished, only abandoned."

I hope to never see AO get shaped and twisted into just another modern crappy streamlined online rpg. They feel like single player games with the "online" feature tacked on just for the subscription fee. AO is so much more than that.


Hardcore gaming is not even close to dead. Have you seen how many people are playing minecraft?? That game is super hardcore! Ridiculously so! One can spend YEARS playing that, exploring, creating art, building cities and castles, the sky is literally the limit in that game and it never stops unless you simply decide to do something else. Though, most game companies are either unable, or unwilling to create games and content that maintains its fun after many, many hours of gameplay, so they decide to do the easy way and create 10-20 minute game experiences that somewhat satisfy the casual player but leaves everyone else bored out of their skulls.

Perhaps you don't have the time to play for several hours at a time but that does not mean noone does, nor does it mean noone should be unable to get a decent game experience with their time invested. The fact that the devs cant/don't play as much as an actual AO player can, makes it difficult for them to design for players who enjoy long gaming sessions. But we as a community are here to help and offer our opinions, however positive or negative they may sound.


I think constructive critisism is a good thing, if something is done against our liking we should say something, it's not a "like it or leave" situation. We care about, and love AO, and can get fairly passionate about it. It's extremely rude, and upsetting to hear "like it or quit" when we feel so strongly about the game.
These discussions turn sour when we're forced to "defend" our opinions. In all honesty I wish I could help more than just offering my opinion, however negative it may sound on occasion...

Well, since I'm not stating any opinion of mine about the game, but rather just recounting facts and observations, then there's not much to disagree with. I too remember AO as a game where you felt it was enough to just participate in what was going on. There was no real pressure to get to endgame, because there was no raiding madness and no clear goal, other than to the world being somewhere to "live" and have things going on.
But, as time went by, we got the various raids. Mercenaries, the supply masters, various legendary monsters on RK. Dynamic boss mobs in the wild. Boss mobs at the end of missions. Gear started to require lvl 200 or stats you could only get there, and things slowly streamlined into a game with the goal being to get to the end of the game and participate in the many things possible there.

The investment to make a proper story ongoing that everyone could participate in probably turned out to be way more problematic than first assumed, as usual, and it was easier to just fall in line with EverQuest.

I, personally, miss the old AO, where you had to spend hours to raid stuff, where you had to have a bunch of friends and go to the end of the world to do something. Where levels weren't something you just automatically got, but was something you had to make a serious effort to get. Remember when people only leveled to 215 because that was considered "good enough"? The last 5 levels not considered worth it, over the time investment that it was to get there?
Then we had more and more gear require lvl 220, or stats only possible at that level, and people started feeling the need to do this even more. And well, hundreds of people were complaining that it took way too long to get anywhere now that the endgame was the goal yet again.

As it's rather clear that there were some rather opposing thoughts behind the game design going on here; adding max lvl requiring raids and gear but making it extremely time consuming just to be able to take part, then we can discuss the merrits of each style. I'm afraid that with the way of AO's development over time, the declining emphasis on telling a story outside and inside the game, ever interweaving, we're left with the only viable direction being the one we're headed in now. There's no longer a great market for the sort-of openworld make your own story kind of game, or at least not in the minds of publishers, they hear the word MMO they get $ in their eyes. $ means clone the WoW formula and hope for an extreme boom to start out with, earn in development cost, and sit out a while after, making your millions of players sit for maybe 6 months, and you've a fortune. Invested 30-40 million €, made 200 million.
People move on, then, to expect a similar game, like you go from an FPS to another FPS and expect it to be some variety of shooting from the first person. Same with MMOs, they expect them to be about solo questing and endgame raiding in arcade style scenarios.

EVE sits as the only truly succesful game to have gone the opposite direction. AO is too far down the opposite road to ever go back. So the matter at hand now is to properly streamline the current experience and bring the general gameplay up to par with the rest of the business. Because even while there's a lot of presently unique things in AO's combat system, most of it is not really beneficial if you're trying to sell it to someone new to the game, but experienced in the genre.

So, might as well accept that the AO of yesteryear is no more and can never be again, and embrace the new direction entirely or quit while your memories are still fond and intact.

[Wrangeline]

Stuff

That was.. a really good post.

While it's not entirely too late or impossible to steer AO into a more open and less goal-oriented experience like it used to be, I think you are pretty much correct in that it's to late to make AO exactly what it was before. We can get it closer to what it was but it will never be the same. Not without unrooting and completely changing every single addition to the game over the last 6 years. Which isn't realistic or practical.

In addition to that, as you say, most players and the MMO-genre itself have moved on to more streamlined and directed progressions and experiences. People currently playing AO may enjoy what AO once was but most people that came into playing MMO's the last 5 years or so wouldn't be able to feel at home here that same way. Not because they are incapable of enjoying a game like AO was back in the olden days, but because what AO was back in the olden days kinda only works if you have the right mindset for it.

The problem here is that AO was awesome back in the day because it was one of the first MMO's and most people that started playing it back then were completely new to the concept of MMO's. I know I was. So roleplaying, smelling the roses, doing things for the sake of fun rather than completing goals, was completely natural and fun for me. But once you have played a MMO for several years, that novelty is eroded away a lot and you are left with remembering it fondly yet never really grabbing for it again. You simply know too much now. When you start playing a new MMO now you know too much about the concept and all the goals in front of you. The sense of wonder and curiosity is often replaced with a strange desire to start leveling and to reach those goals and become powerful sooner rather than later. You will have fun smelling the roses along the way but you are still moving toward various goals.

Now, not everyone is like this. Some never lost that initial sense of wonder, fun and curiosity. These people still don't have several 220's in AO and they may never have reached 220 on any character yet after all these years. These people are able to try out new MMO's and play them in a non-goal-oriented way. I just maintain that most people these days don't manage to hold onto that mentality for long. Especially since it's an accumulative thing. Meaning, more and more people start moving towards goal-oriented-gaming, which means more and more people are surrounded by people that have such mentality, which affects how they play the game and so on. So goal-oriented gameplay takes over more and more each year.

So the act of trying to turn AO back into what it was is the very definition of swimming against the stream. It's hard work for little gain. Relatively speaking.

But there is one glimmer of hope in there. It's hard to get at, but it's there. Which is, it is possible to make AO as open as possible, while maintaining all the goal-oriented gameplay.

1. If leveling is a goal, then at least give us a lot of viable options in how to do that.

2. If getting good gear/setups is a goal, then at least give us a lot of options for truly viable setups for our characters.

3. If spending a lot of time and effort on one character to become truly good is a goal, then at least give us a lot of options along the way for other fun activities we can do BEFORE we reach that long-term goal. We do have some such things already such as twinking a bit for various dungeons or BS-ranges or s10 or whatever. But it would be nice to get more such fun content we can focus on along the way where twinking isn't really required so much.

Basically, modernize AO but keep it "AO". Removing goal-oriented gameplay from AO may be way too late now, but we can still maintain a lot of what makes AO what it is. If FC makes it so that everyone is cookie cutter'ing their characters and gameplay, then AO would have lost what it was and would be competing directly with games that are newer and better than AO. That wont work. AO has to be the game that allows choice, if it is to compete at all.

[Falados9]

Any plans for new BS maps ???

[Dollcet]

Attention! We are performing a server restart in 20 mins. Estimated downtime will last 3 hours.

.......


How about putting half of the regular Downtimes into the US-Timezone , 90% of Downtimes the Euro players get their Playtime stolen ... ?

[Kuyt]

Business hours is a bitch >.<

Atleast i got a heads up and could just about get Pen key quest done and kill vanya xD

[Tazalanche]

How about putting half of the regular Downtimes into the US-Timezone , 90% of Downtimes the Euro players get their Playtime stolen ... ?

Put downtime into a US timezone?
All timezones in the US are occurring in Europe too... just at a different hour.

Just to make sure I understand correctly, you are asking for it to be done during the middle of the day in North America so that it affects European players during the prime playing hours of the evening?

[Kuyt]

If thats the case, disregard my previous post about business hours ^^

[Xirayne]

AO is too far down the opposite road to ever go back.

Very good post Masta but this quote drives me nuts

I personally don't think that it's too late, nor do a lot of people, I think, who also do miss the old days. It's why we struggle and get frustrated when all the updates do show ao moving in the more streamlined direction.
We still hope that it will get better, and with the new engine and rebalance incoming, almost a reboot of AO, Many of the old timers see this as *the* opportunity to repair the damage done by the modernizing. With everything else getting nerfed, why not the exclusively streamlined game elements which take away from the rest of the game?

What was wrong with the old game elements? It had things designed for both the casual, and the hardcore players, and everyone in between. It may be more difficult, but it's entirely possible to design for co-existing with goal oriented gaming.
It was only when the exclusive and overpowered endgame content (started with SL, LE pushed it further, and LoX was the death blow), and the boosted xp/credit rewards (S10, Daily missions) started rolling out which more or less ruined the ability for hardcore + casual players participating together in a reasonable ammount of time, it all went downhill from there, and we started to have serious population gaps and the idea that we are unable to even participate and enjoy the game until we reach ___ level and have ___ gear.. and if this modernizing continues, many fear that it will only get worse. We'll end up with boredom at the end, and playing will feel like a chore.



I simply think, that there has to be a game element to AO that rewards those who can, and do invest more than 20-30 minutes of time into their game. There has to be a world outside the battlestation and outside the daily mission that's worth playing and enjoying.

Currently speaking most cities are completely deserted, nobody hangs out in front of the subways, nobody hangs out in front of totw, I have seen maybe 1 person in Omni Entertainment the past few times I've explored it, xp for killing mobs feels like a drop in the bucket compared to daily reward, regular loot found in rk and SL for the most part are so underpowered and outdated that they aren't even worth it as shop food, social skills are at an all time low, and the ratio of twinks to "regular" players in bs and what left of city pvp is ridiculous and unwelcoming, RP is just about dead, There's no difference between omni/clan game experience except for which side has towers and players and which side doesn't. All things that will most likely get a lot worse, and a lot more difficult to manage if AO follows its mainstream route. There's little to no reason for me to stay logged in after my dailies, unless I have some painfully long and annoying quest to do, except to chat with my friends.

It's a chore now to acquire credits and gear and xp to become "average".. Time consuming part of the game that many don't even enjoy. Before, we didn't even need to. If it were my way I'd just remove or totally rework bs, dailies, quests.. Lately all we've gotten have been dailies which dwarf regular xp gain to the point that many find it too "futile" to participate anymore, and the pvp experience getting even smaller than it was before, and more difficult to participate in due to not enough people signing up and joining. A lot of my friends and orgmates have been "log for dailies, log next toon for dailies, maybe chat for a few mins, log off" It drives me mad! :P While AO may never be exactly as it was, there's still much hope that we can once again get a good game experience once all the dust has settled. That is, only if funcom and the dev team acknolwedge, and agree with our views of the game.

[MidgarClan]

Very good post Masta but this quote drives me nuts

I personally don't think that it's too late, nor do a lot of people, I think, who also do miss the old days. It's why we struggle and get frustrated when all the updates do show ao moving in the more streamlined direction.
We still hope that it will get better, and with the new engine and rebalance incoming, almost a reboot of AO, Many of the old timers see this as *the* opportunity to repair the damage done by the modernizing. With everything else getting nerfed, why not the exclusively streamlined game elements which take away from the rest of the game?

What was wrong with the old game elements? It had things designed for both the casual, and the hardcore players, and everyone in between. It may be more difficult, but it's entirely possible to design for co-existing with goal oriented gaming.
It was only when the exclusive and overpowered endgame content (started with SL, LE pushed it further, and LoX was the death blow), and the boosted xp/credit rewards (S10, Daily missions) started rolling out which more or less ruined the ability for hardcore + casual players participating together in a reasonable ammount of time, it all went downhill from there, and we started to have serious population gaps and the idea that we are unable to even participate and enjoy the game until we reach ___ level and have ___ gear.. and if this modernizing continues, many fear that it will only get worse. We'll end up with boredom at the end, and playing will feel like a chore.



I simply think, that there has to be a game element to AO that rewards those who can, and do invest more than 20-30 minutes of time into their game. There has to be a world outside the battlestation and outside the daily mission that's worth playing and enjoying.

Currently speaking most cities are completely deserted, nobody hangs out in front of the subways, nobody hangs out in front of totw, I have seen maybe 1 person in Omni Entertainment the past few times I've explored it, xp for killing mobs feels like a drop in the bucket compared to daily reward, regular loot found in rk and SL for the most part are so underpowered and outdated that they aren't even worth it as shop food, social skills are at an all time low, and the ratio of twinks to "regular" players in bs and what left of city pvp is ridiculous and unwelcoming, RP is just about dead, There's no difference between omni/clan game experience except for which side has towers and players and which side doesn't. All things that will most likely get a lot worse, and a lot more difficult to manage if AO follows its mainstream route. There's little to no reason for me to stay logged in after my dailies, unless I have some painfully long and annoying quest to do, except to chat with my friends.

It's a chore now to acquire credits and gear and xp to become "average".. Time consuming part of the game that many don't even enjoy. Before, we didn't even need to. If it were my way I'd just remove or totally rework bs, dailies, quests.. Lately all we've gotten have been dailies which dwarf regular xp gain to the point that many find it too "futile" to participate anymore, and the pvp experience getting even smaller than it was before, and more difficult to participate in due to not enough people signing up and joining. A lot of my friends and orgmates have been "log for dailies, log next toon for dailies, maybe chat for a few mins, log off" It drives me mad! :P While AO may never be exactly as it was, there's still much hope that we can once again get a good game experience once all the dust has settled. That is, only if funcom and the dev team acknolwedge, and agree with our views of the game.

AO is not by a long shot to far gone. In fact is is to far under-gone if anything. We need to utilize under utilized areas of rubi-ka such as quests that are not played anymore, instances that are collecting dust. AO just need's to be revitalized in order to bring it's once glorious appeal back to the community. Everything from team missions, tir rings quest and the will to fight can all be brought into the communities eyes again. With a few much need changes and updates that can be done quickly if the right designer is chosen. Not limited to the a fore mentioned; ao just needs a good polishing around the edges before it can move on to bigger and better expansions. It must be a priority that Rubi-Ka be brought back into the picture and then a good cleaning up of SL. From everything to items, armors, instances and all. AO is simply out of date to suit it's self. It moved along and paid no attention to it's roots, therefore leaving it's self behind. So long as all content made after notum wars can be adjusted to reflect the content after it and always thereafter. AO will be the most subscribed to MMO on the market. There is no argument for this. Being the intelligent and adventurous game that it is, there is no competition. Only 1 MMO ever made that is now abandoned came close in comparison, and with the proper marketing after needed adjustments are made all across the board, ao will be what is, all else will be none. Anyone with negativity toward AO in any fashion, has not realized what Funcom is attempting to do for AO now. There is a grander scheme then any of us can see, and only few of us will until it happens. Believe me when I say, big changes are comming, and all will enjoy it. How can I say this you ask? I been here for ten years, I know.

[Twangleman]

I really hope devs pay attention to this thread

[Frubaliscious]

I really hope devs pay attention to this thread

I would be shocked if anyone employed by FC reads past the first 2 pages of any thread.

[Falados9]

I agree with Midgarclan people should just enjoy the game as it is and while devs adding new stuff for us to keeps 220 interested

[Alternity]

I find it interesting that more and more people leave AO each time a "streamlined" patch drop into our laps. Makes me wonder if there will be anyone around when the new engine and rebalance hits.

We can never go back to the "true" AO I know that, I just wish the devs would stop the WoW approach, and let's face it we are moving towards WoW. We've seen more than enough MMOs go down that path, only to be rejected and utterly fail.
EVE and CCP had the balls to go hardcore, they found a niche market and are currently reaping the benefits of being unique. One can only dream that FC had balls to do the same, because there will be no light at the end of the tunnel where we are heading now.

[Demoder]

I find it interesting that more and more people leave AO each time a "streamlined" patch drop into our laps.

Two alternate theories, which are based on the exact same observation:
1) People quit because of excessive whining on forums, especially around patch day
2) Time passes by, and people quit because they've already spent years of their lives on this game.

Main issue is getting new blood. New blood won't stay for long when they show a little interest for mountain climbing, and are told to climb Mt. Everest on their own w/o any equipment but what they happen to come across on the way up.

[Mastablasta]

I find it interesting that more and more people leave AO each time a "streamlined" patch drop into our laps. Makes me wonder if there will be anyone around when the new engine and rebalance hits.

We can never go back to the "true" AO I know that, I just wish the devs would stop the WoW approach, and let's face it we are moving towards WoW. We've seen more than enough MMOs go down that path, only to be rejected and utterly fail.
EVE and CCP had the balls to go hardcore, they found a niche market and are currently reaping the benefits of being unique. One can only dream that FC had balls to do the same, because there will be no light at the end of the tunnel where we are heading now.

Well, we see games like Earthrise and Darkfall try to go the hardcore path, but where are they now

[Redbar]

IMO if you wanna have a more active BS, make rewards from Battlestation attractive again (hello buyable Ofab!) and the reward orientated players will join again. The daily mission guys are simply not enough. Also I feel like it became a lot less pvpers the last years/months. Maybe Rebalance will bring them back.

I know a sure-fire way of making BS rewards attractive: Give the "daily" XP reward to everyone at the end of every round.
Of course, level locked twinks and 220s don't get any direct benefit from that, but at least they won't run out of people to shoot at and won't have to suffer waiting hours for BS to start (at least around euro primetime).

This also goes toward solving the complaint that there is no real leveling alternative to "cripplers, hecks, hecks, hecks, inf", and the traditional complaint that you can't level a character by doing PvP.

[MidgarClan]

We can never go back to the "true" AO I know that, I just wish the devs would stop the WoW approach, and let's face it we are moving towards WoW. We've seen more than enough MMOs go down that path, only to be rejected and utterly fail.

LoL,WoW? for real? Not even close bud.

[Lusos101]

Yes WoW fo reelz. If you look at the big picture instead of looking to the little details you will see a clear Wowification of AO. Namely in its approach to the leveling system. In WoW leveling is fast and easy, where people are expected to spend their time is not during leveling but farming gear at endgame. AO is going the same route. Leveling is becoming less and less important, what counts is the farming of stuff after.

I agree that AO would probably have a brighter future as a hardcore niche RPG game then by converting into another WoW-clone. The basic game is still there, all it needs is fixing.

However I also agree that FC (and apparently the dev team) has made up its mind and decided the future of the game. Therefore it is useless for us players to waste our time trying to conv...

[Ruffixx]

In order to get someone to pay attention (if they haven't already):

Means stinks! He dresses like he's stuck in the 90s.

Kintaii stinks! What a lamer.

Anarrina stinks! How dare she enforce rules on a forum.

- You're welcome. I agree with a lot of the past page or two. I never play Debbie Downer, but AO's time might be running out to 'right the ship.' The few people I know who do play still have been waiting like me for years for Diablo 3 - coming end of 2011/first half 2012. Then the rest - pretty much all the rest - are waiting on TSW. Even if FC time pushes April back to August, how much of the population is going to care to even sporadically log in once D3/TSW are both out? Very, very few. That engine isn't going to be out by April, so too little too late.

[MidgarClan]

Yes WoW fo reelz. If you look at the big picture instead of looking to the little details you will see a clear Wowification of AO. Namely in its approach to the leveling system. In WoW leveling is fast and easy, where people are expected to spend their time is not during leveling but farming gear at endgame. AO is going the same route. Leveling is becoming less and less important, what counts is the farming of stuff after.

I agree that AO would probably have a brighter future as a hardcore niche RPG game then by converting into another WoW-clone. The basic game is still there, all it needs is fixing.

However I also agree that FC (and apparently the dev team) has made up its mind and decided the future of the game. Therefore it is useless for us players to waste our time trying to conv...

Leveling is Made easy? How's that? and just remember that it won't be in the near future if you think pocketing is staying around, nothing like wow there btw. They still have not hired the content designer foo.. u think his job is going to be limited to one specific area? That persons job will include anything you can think of including returning ao to the spirit of the game by removing un-due things like pocketing, and balancing UN-balanced things etc. Funcom did not make leveling easy... If it is easy at all which it is not entirely, it's because we did it to our selfs after we saw Funcom's boo-boo.