Testlive Changes

[Louderer789]

Based on rudimentary calculations I think that means most professions can only hope to reach 8%, maybe 9% for some infantry symb users or professions like soldier and fixer who might wear CC and (for some reason) have a higher IP cap for riposte. And then possibly another 1% further to Keeper and Shade from buffs and perks.

So will most people spend 1m IP for the equivalent of permanent 1.5% reflect and 3% chance for AS/SA to miss completely? I suspect they will all try

[McKnuckleSamwich]

ive put the whole duels becomming a result of luck, not skill, aswell as the drop in pvm damage and agro loss

on the complaints summary in rebalance discussion

Duels becoming a result of luck is hilarious.

deflect will make negligible difference compared to evades.

You should consider the primary damage mitigation measures already in game are, before you say that adding another mechanism will turn skill--> luck.

For most profs, deflect will result in a loss of damage on a "kill" alpha of about 0%, while loss of damage on a long drawn out fight might be in the range of 2%-3%.

You don't make kills on long drawn out damage do you?

[Wakizaka]

Based on rudimentary calculations I think that means most professions can only hope to reach 8%, maybe 9% for some infantry symb users or professions like soldier and fixer who might wear CC and (for some reason) have a higher IP cap for riposte. And then possibly another 1% further to Keeper and Shade from buffs and perks.

So will most people spend 1m IP for the equivalent of permanent 1.5% reflect and 3% chance for AS/SA to miss completely? I suspect they will all try

I can only reach ~2,200 deflect on my Keeper, so ~10.5% deflect chance.

[Psikie]

Duels becoming a result of luck is hilarious.

You don't make kills on long drawn out damage do you?

I would actually say this deflect makes fights MORE based on skill, and less on "hit hotkey alpha". In fact I've noticed 2 things especially when dueling...

1. The longer the fight the more more odds are that I win.
2. The longer the fight the more important non dd tools become.

Most, not all pvp players rely on that alpha killing power, or try to duel like they would kill a heckler lol. I think deflect takes that away and it makes profs that need more time to build up and kill a LOT more dangerous.

[Tyfowler]

I would actually say this deflect makes fights MORE based on skill, and less on "hit hotkey alpha". In fact I've noticed 2 things especially when dueling... 1. The longer the fight the more more odds are that I win. 2. The longer the fight the more important non dd tools become. Most, not all pvp players rely on that alpha killing power, or try to duel like they would kill a heckler lol. I think deflect takes that away and it makes profs that need more time to build up and kill a LOT more dangerous.

But will the evades+deflect that some professions have make it possibly OP? When you were testing what professions did you fight against? Were you self buffed? Was it a duel? or Flagged pvp?

[Esqi]

Deflect is an added evade, so ontop of nasty evades comes at best and easily accomplished another 7-10% chance of evading/reducing damage.

You cant time when to hit anything against deflect, its random. So how do you work around it? You cant.+

Thats all the evade/aad chars need, more chances to evade/dodge.

AAD needs a nerf, then id accept deflect.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Deflect is an added evade, so ontop of nasty evades comes at best and easily accomplished another 7-10% chance of evading/reducing damage.

You cant time when to hit anything against deflect, its random. So how do you work around it? You cant.+

Thats all the evade/aad chars need, more chances to evade/dodge.

AAD needs a nerf, then id accept deflect.

Whether or not you accept it, it's still be proposed and made it to test.

I agree that for soldiers and any FA users it is certainly a pain in the ass - BUT, I'd hazard a guess that soldiers in particular, and other FA users have had a bit cushy of a ride since Dshark came out in general.

Full auto was never meant to be a free ride to a capped hit - clearly that's the case since inception since the very mechanics scream "break me", the fact that any missed bullet causes the rest to miss is the basis of that distinction.

With the power items adding to game in the last 10 years or so, FA has become laughably strong, and, perhaps ironically, laughably limited by damage caps. Lets just back up a minute to think about this.

Endgame soldiers are hitting - what, about 36-39 bullets on a low evade target? (Forgive me on this, I haven't actually noticed despite playing with one somewhat regularly)

if each bullet is capable of doing 3000 (this isn't a stretch - I've seen 10k bursts before) damage

Then lets think here for a moment about how many bullets are actually needed to get into the 14000-15000 damage range:

If FA has a soft damage cap of 10k, after which any subsequent damage is reduced by a factor of 3 and FA also has a hardcap of 15k damage - then to do 15k damage FA, you must, within your bullet count, hit enough to deal 25,000 damage.

10000+15000/3 = max of 15000 dmg.

So, 25000 damage/3000dmg per bullet = 8.3 bullets.

Now, not to kick a dead horse here or anything, but whatever your endgame FA skill is getting you for # bullets, I guaranf*ckingtee that whatever 30+ bullets isn't just overkill - it's pixel/casing pollution!

Now, granted, y'all aren't getting 3k regulars all the time... but lets also not forget that bullets in FA can crit. So, even if you aren't hitting 3k regulars, an 8 bullet FA is 60% likely to have at least 1 critting bullet if your crit rate is 11% (83% likely with a 20% crit rate) which could bring your needed regular down to about

25000/9 = 2777 dmg - which in my experience isn't too difficult to achieve.

Now, just to remind you of what we've discussed previously, with regards to deflect, lets be generous and say you want to hit a 10 bullet FA.

If the maxed out chance for deflection is 10% then the chance that the FA is broken on any bullet BY DEFLECTION is:
0.9^10 = 35% where the chance of any bullet landing is exactly 100%-chance of deflect = ~90%

But, since you only need 4 bullets to make the 10k damage soft cap (prior to the damage reduction) you'll have a:

0.9^4 = 66% chance to make that on every FA.

Now, that is the added benefit of deflection.

But there's also evades. My understanding of evades is not as thorough as I'd like, I merely understand that I never, EVER have enough.

But my general feeling is that the evasion logic works on a ratio between the attackers AR of the attack and the AR + relevant evades of the target:

((FA+AR)/2+AAO)/((FA+AR)/2+AAO+(Dodge Range+AAD))

So, lets say you have 1.4k FA skill, 1.5k AR, 400 AAO, and the evader has 2k dodge range and 700 AAD.

The chance of any single bullet of your FA hitting the target is:
((1400+1500)/2+400)/((1400+1500)/2+400+2000+700) = 1850/4550 = 40%

Now, here's the kicker, if you've only got a 40% chance for each bullet to hit, the probability of landing a 10 bullet FA is:

0.4^9 = 0.01% that's like the chance of getting struck by lightning.

In this case, say this is a mid SL level soldier fighting a mid SL level advy with DOF running... you're not even going to think about whether deflect is going to ruin your FA... Hell, you're going to be happy you landed 1-2 bullets.

Lets be honest. IF FA is too tough to land in PVP... why not just swap to a Aimed shot weapon? And, to be fair... isn't this what soldiers do anyway?

I feel like the deflect mechanic is being given too much credence for what it's mechanics represent. Yes, DPS is a bit low right now in PVM - but it shouldn't be too hard to either adjust the deflect parameters to make mobs slightly less capable of deflection - either by introduction of a -deflect modifier on, say, tracer, or laser paint target - but in PVP I really don't see it being a big problem.

[Esqi]

Free ride is hardly true, thete is a hell of alot of aad out there on end game toons and we almost always have to have debuffs running to have a chance against any prof where its needed. Ontop of that the proffs you need them for they dont land, so go figure.

As a soli I get a tad over 2520 fa which is 30 bullets and thats with a fa contract and I dont have towers.

EDIT: I can add a bit more if i use some FA buffing items and a ransack tower, but really the only big diff is the ransack and presence. I also wont use an reference to MR, as its a breed specific perk.

37-39 is not attainable.

Maybe dshark was a glory moment for fa but the def quickly caught up and surpassed it.

10% chance ontop of the existing def rating serves as a nerf really. Aad needs to reduce damage, not remove it l8ke it currently does. Should tracer/lpt/tt gain some deflect debuff % i could accept that more as a workable solution.

Sure this aint end of days stuff but it really is extra love to already strong defensive classes.

Killing power is a diff topic if thats to be used as any justification.

[Esqi]

Mate long posts may be grand and that but the issue is rather simple.

Def setups are gaining extra def.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Just don't forget that soldiers are getting access too.

And, for the record, I'm not saying deflect is working perfectly. I agree that soldiers are far more exposed to the mitigation mechanic than other classes - fixers excepted.

But I'm also incredibly tired of the easy-mode FA garbage that rookie soldiers feel entitled to as soon as they slap on an endgame gun. FA has been a broken special for a very, very long time, so ya, deflect might be hurting it a bit much in the current iteration, but I'm willing to eat that trade-off in the short term to see better long term balancing.

Don't forget it wasn't so long ago that FA was going to lock out AS and vice versa. Just out of curiosity - which would you rather?

[Esqi]

I really dont agree with you on easy mode fa, rookie soldiers who fight anyone half decent get owned. The days of winning by facerolling are long gone imo - anyway we shalt not digress from topic!

To answer your question, no one liked that lockout thing afaik and that stupid mechanic shouldnt be used as any form of justification again. This change is just a making good on a non working mechanic.

Deflect should be constant as AAD but they both should compliment each other in reducing damage, not removing it.

[Tyfowler]

Long Post

FA will no longer be even close to a viable mechanic in endgame pvp. FA will become chance in pvm. This is what I am saying. Your numbers are a bit off there, 39 bullet FAs, 4 bullet 10k FAs while possible take major help. But the PVM. There is no aimshot in pvm. Battles will be longer and I hope for your sake at ANY lvl that you will be able to survive. It's interesting that people only focus on what changes mean against endgame pvp. Deflect can hurt any level pvm as well. If I see an endgame soldier not capping full auto on backyard leets, what is a lvling player going to do?

Def setups are gaining extra def.

Yes. this is the problem. Now note in the patch, we get a bit more AR. For my soldier friends this is my best counter: Go Aimshot setup, get as much AR as possible and MR kill, hope the deflects don't screw ya.

Just don't forget that soldiers are getting access too. And, for the record, I'm not saying deflect is working perfectly. I agree that soldiers are far more exposed to the mitigation mechanic than other classes - fixers excepted. But I'm also incredibly tired of the easy-mode FA garbage that rookie soldiers feel entitled to as soon as they slap on an endgame gun. FA has been a broken special for a very, very long time, so ya, deflect might be hurting it a bit much in the current iteration, but I'm willing to eat that trade-off in the short term to see better long term balancing.

Fair enough, kill our DD! But in return I expect quicker perk recharges and a not half thought out heal. how are rookie soldier's expected to solo anything, or kill anything without FA. FA is what we depend on for DD overall. We can't depend on our perks, they take so long to recharge. We don't have a real heal to stay alive, and our best defence renders us vulnerable for a large chunk of time. Rookie or New Soldiers shouldn't have to struggle against mobs that almost every other profession could solo based on their toolset. As for PVP goes, no real rookie soldier has a chance in pvp endgame. Soldiers, with the very few exceptions, really have to be pretty good geared to make a real difference in a fight.

I really dont agree with you on easy mode fa, rookie soldiers who fight anyone half decent get owned. The days of winning by facerolling are long gone imo - anyway we shalt not digress from topic! To answer your question, no one liked that lockout thing afaik and that stupid mechanic shouldnt be used as any form of justification again. This change is just a making good on a non working mechanic. Deflect should be constant as AAD but they both should compliment each other in reducing damage, not removing it.

Thats an interesting idea by making AAD reduce damage instead of remove it. Unfortunately I don't think they have the time nor workforce to completely change a mechanic like that. I mean look at deflect and how that turned out.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Alright, I'll bite.

But this convo has gone full hypothetical, because clearly this is an unobtainable request.

So, if you want AAD to directly reduce damage taken (say, as well as deflect)... we're kind of heading down the road of homogenization.

What's to differentiate these stats from reflect? And, just to throw some numbers around.... what kind of mitigation do you have in mind (hypothetically speaking?)

Not to be annoying here, but I can already see the incredible difficulty in balance - but at the same time I can see that there is some logic to this - how it's factored would be the ultimate question. Given that AAD varies between say 500 or so for, say, soldiers at endgame, and potentially as high as 4500 I think for crats, but as low as say 10-100 in the first 4 TL's.... I'm curious as to whether you have an idea as to how to balance it.

See, it is already balanced in game because it merely adds to a ratio that provides a Boolean logic answer, which, when counted an infinite number of times, will always have the exact percentage of mitigation indicated by the AR/AR+evade ratio.

So, in a way, over a long (very long fight) it actually does mitigate damage exactly as you've suggested. What, I presume you're doing is investigating individual hits, specials and perks and drawing your conclusions from the Boolean logic event which determines the hit/miss mechanic. In your case, you're suggesting that AAD doesn't reduce damage directly, but removes it entirely, but over the course of a long fight, it does exactly that.

If we were to apply the infinite hit/miss ratio to each individual event (i.e. direct mitigation per damage dealing event) This could work, however, the primary problem I would say is the likely outcome of this... is that you'd almost never be able to generate enough damage against evade profs who could heal, almost always (like 100% of the time) be able to kill a prof like crat who systematically relies on mitigating 99.9% of incoming damage based on evasion while his perks are down, and without error not be able to damage him whilst the perks were up.

So, the immediate issue I see is survival is invariably linked to perks, and high AR profs would absolutely decimate any prof that cannot heal.

[Tyfowler]

That last post is a good post Mcknuck. It doesn't matter what we do because AAD is the all powerful in the game right now. So you have to counter it. The counter is AAO. Talk to most people in game and they say more AAO is bad. My Idea of bad is the sheer amount of AAD in the game. EDIT: I hate these new forums btw. my posts run all together. I have to figure out how to change this.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

@ tyfowler

I agree with your concerns, and I absolutely feel as strongly about the loss of one part of your toolset requiring bolstering in others.

In general I think the deflect chance on mobs is too high
In general I think the base deflect chance on people is too high
In general I think the gain in deflect for IPing the skill is far too low
And finally I think that the method of implementation isn't very good. My preference would have been similar to what I've suggested in the past which is based on an actionable defence that has a high probability to miss up to 3 normal/special attacks over a short period of time, which then locks the defence for a period of time inversely proportional to your skill rating.

That's skill based, timed, and much more governable than a randomly applied mechanism...

But that's just my opinion.

[Esqi]

I got to go to basketball, i dont have time to sit and debate as much as id like to. The discussion warrants it but we both agree the mechanic getting sorted is justified but at what means to an end is just?

The suggestion to use AS and just lump it is purely a pvp facepalm, we do it cause ultimately people who duel (im not a common dueler now for many years) use it to win.

I dont see how the effort to change the mechanic is any more effort requiring that introducing deflect.

You did mention that over a long duration aad does mitigate damage by reducing it, in reality this may be over a longer period of time where %'s level out, but for a soldier who at most fights against melee chars for say, a tad over a minute it cant be used as a measure of mitigation. Sure its hypothetical but at the end, is not discussion on paper re mechanics all hypothetical?

A sold is a DD class, before Dshark and the like (it only really brought us up to a slightly par manner/level) our performance was terrible in pvm damage. It changed briefly with skill lock and the typed weapons but was quickly changed again for reasons we all know. FA is the bread and butter of our DD, it should not be applicable on mobs full stop, i do however understand they have the mechanic in them built in already - but in pvp or pvm there is no way to work towards a build that alleviates deflect in any way or form.

End of the day, tough evade type classes will benefit survival wise from the deflect addition in the current form on test. Really do advies/enf's etc (ill leave out keeper, they have their own overall issues and i sympathise, suppose being a mack truck for a couple of years and tanking a team of twinks and living is the price you pay - jokes) and even MA's - who tank the damage a sold does and instantly pumps them the moment the ams is offline. So really i suppose nothing is changing, just the end result being more defined :P

EDIT: I agree with you last post Knuck.

[Tyfowler]

@ tyfowler I agree with your concerns, and I absolutely feel as strongly about the loss of one part of your toolset requiring bolstering in others. In general I think the deflect chance on mobs is too high In general I think the base deflect chance on people is too high In general I think the gain in deflect for IPing the skill is far too low

Agreed

And finally I think that the method of implementation isn't very good. My preference would have been similar to what I've suggested in the past which is based on an actionable defence that has a high probability to miss up to 3 normal/special attacks over a short period of time, which then locks the defence for a period of time inversely proportional to your skill rating. That's skill based, timed, and much more governable than a randomly applied mechanism... But that's just my opinion.

Like a perk, that would use the deflect action for a specific period of time, giving the user a %deflect buff based on the amount of ip invested. This may be the answer. treat it like a special. nothing random about this.

[Wakizaka]

Endgame soldiers are hitting - what, about 36-39 bullets on a low evade target? (Forgive me on this, I haven't actually noticed despite playing with one somewhat regularly)

5 bullet base, 1 extra bullet for every 100 FA skill.
I'm rocking 2499 FA selfed, 2501 with Gauntlet buff running, or 2501 selfed if I had a ql300 EOE, which results in 30 bullets.

if each bullet is capable of doing 3000 (this isn't a stretch - I've seen 10k bursts before) damage

That is a stretch, and only while Energize/Suppressive Horde/Muzzle Overload (and if you're an SMG soldier, Reinforce Slugs) running, with like a Keeper & Advy in team.

If FA has a soft damage cap of 10k, after which any subsequent damage is reduced by a factor of 3 and FA also has a hardcap of 15k damage - then to do 15k damage FA, you must, within your bullet count, hit enough to deal 25,000 damage.

If memory serves me correctly, there are 2 damage reductions with FA.
One at 10k -> 13k, and one for 13k+.

Lets be honest. IF FA is too tough to land in PVP... why not just swap to a Aimed shot weapon? And, to be fair... isn't this what soldiers do anyway?

I still use a KEC3 in mass PvP against high def targets, but AS will be less reliable with deflect, making a hard to kill target even harder.

[nanoforcer]

I'de prefer to have it as a special on a sliding scale, if skill is < X the duration last for Y secs and you evade Z% of damage, so on in intervals.
Are you reading this fc? Or i guess i nowdays can address a single individual altogether and still hit the entire "team"

Jokes aside, please review this Michi, not just my suggestion but the more intelligent reasoning above.

[Psikie]

But will the evades+deflect that some professions have make it possibly OP? When you were testing what professions did you fight against? Were you self buffed? Was it a duel? or Flagged pvp?

I missed a lot here.

MP-Keep-Enf-Sol

pvm inf dynas/hecks, albratum, ql250 rk missions, and IS
pvp duel logged mp/keep vs enf/sol- best defense vs best offense to time how long it took to get to 3/4 health on test vs live.

I think Soldiers did get kinda screwed offensively. But the players who spent billions on crit gear to slap on AS weapons got it worse. Defensively deflect actually helps soldiers during AMS down time a lot. Between reflects, deflect, and AMS I didn't really need any outside healing to solo same content. I actually felt that even though I couldn't kill as fast I had a lot more survivability pvm wise.

I also think deflect was a pvp control mechanism, I am pretty sure that it will get a pvm reduction or adjustment.

From my testing you basically are getting about 10-15% deflected shots. Now on reg hits it was just 1/2 dmg of course, but those specials was were the deflect really started to add up. The pvp alpha days are going by the wayside with deflect. If you are used to MR-perk chain-fling-burst-FA 5 sec alpha kills vs greenies, you better start planning a new strategy now.

I would not be surprised if after patch players dump FA and AS weapons for fling/burst almost exclusively.