Evades are they really worth it in pvp ??

[Fatcrusher]

Ok id just like to say in my opinion after fighting a fare few twinks that personally i beleive evades are a complete waste of time in pvp around lvl 100 . "WOWEEE!!! i have evades maxed"
"WOWEEE!!! im a trader with a scope and UVC bang..bang...bang..oh ur dead"
"WOWEEE!!! thx for showing me just how great evades are in pvp "

Also a little note to all you traders out there thinking ur god cuz you basically own pvp .
WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFE ur just another unorriginall twink. I can see you guys know dribbling over youre computer whilst you beat on someone (except traders of course) and **** youre pants and run to the nearest zone if by some small mirracle you dont crit 3 times in a row after u have rooted and deprived of course . But hey no offence to you traders its just that i dont feel you have the right to say youre not UBER . My god if i lose to and adventurer thats when i have some respect , but losing a duel to a trader is just an average occurence in the arena or any other zone they can catch ya in .

p.s plz dont start a "traders arent uber argument with me "
YOU ARE !!!!!!!! AND YOU SMELL !!!!!!

[______________Soccom]

Originally posted by bigb
Ok id just like to say in my opinion after fighting a fare few twinks that personally i beleive evades are a complete waste of time in pvp around lvl 100 . "WOWEEE!!! i have evades maxed"
"WOWEEE!!! im a trader with a scope and UVC bang..bang...bang..oh ur dead"
"WOWEEE!!! thx for showing me just how great evades are in pvp "

Also a little note to all you traders out there thinking ur god cuz you basically own pvp .
WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFE ur just another unorriginall twink. I can see you guys know dribbling over youre computer whilst you beat on someone (except traders of course) and **** youre pants and run to the nearest zone if by some small mirracle you dont crit 3 times in a row after u have rooted and deprived of course . But hey no offence to you traders its just that i dont feel you have the right to say youre not UBER . My god if i lose to and adventurer thats when i have some respect , but losing a duel to a trader is just an average occurence in the arena or any other zone they can catch ya in .

p.s plz dont start a "traders arent uber argument with me "
YOU ARE !!!!!!!! AND YOU SMELL !!!!!!

Doctors are uber with crit buff
Traders are uber with crit buff
Enforcers are uber with crit buff
Agents are uber with crit buff
Adventurers are uber with crit buff
Soldiers are uber with crit buff
Crats are uber with crit buff
Engineers are uber with crit buff
MPs are uber with crit buff
MAs are uber with crit buff (MAs with shotguns is really messed up. I have seen this a few times now..)
NTs are uber with crit buff
*All when using high crit fast weapons*

and even more when you don't have the crit buff
..

so i ask you "DO YOU HAVE DA CRIT?"
if not..
prepared to be owned.

[______________Soccom]

Above of course is PVP only! =D
All the above without crit buff = mobs are very very UBER =)


PS. I always thought "uber" was german for very.
so mobs are very very VERY

[_____________Cloudeh]

Uber means "Over" or "on the top" no?

[Kinkstaah]

The evade chance is done before evades.

So if you have +24% to crit, you will crit 24% of the time, even if bob has 27,000 in all 3 evades, your crits will still hit.

[__________Iniquitous]

The problem is...
The game favors any weapon with high crits in PvP, ie shotgun.
There are a few reasons for this:
1) Like Mikebond says, the evade vs. attack check seems to be completely divorced from the critbuff add on the chance to crit. So someone w/ UVC and a +10 scope will probably kill you in 9 shots no matter what your evades (34% chance, 3/9 crits)
2) The 100% percent heals make non-crit dmg laughable. I just found out today that my q96 chem streamer cant outdo a q70 healpet's heal. If I can't outdamage heals, I can't win.
3) Crits do constant dmg, meaning that they ignore AC. This means that even a underequipped shottie will hit the 40% dmg cap, no matter how cool the target thinks he is w/ his full set of flowers.

A lot of people b*tch and whine about traders, they are too good, etc. I think half of this is that traders use shotties almost exclusively. I have on several occasions lost to a trader before he even ransacked/deprived. Unfortunately FC will probably nerf the hell outta the trader prof, when they probably only need a slight nerf. (especially at lower levels) Then everyone will reroll a doc and use shottie, and everyone will complain about that. Here's what FC could do.

A) Make critbuff self only.
This is an easy fix, but it would screw a lot of things up. First off, PvM would be a nightmare for any shottie wielder. This would also make MAs less desirable in teams, and it would make heals even more powerful. Soldiers would suck even more pre-150, and probably not be so great afterwards. Docs would kill everything except a trader, those fights would go to who debuffed first...like it is now. Oh ya, traders would be *more* powerful, since any class without a debuff is pretty much screwed when a trader stacks deprive/ransack/whatever, because the trader can just root him and run if he gets in trouble, then heal to full. For most classes, the best chance to kill a trader comes when the trader is initially casting the debuffs, since they are a fairly long cast. (soldiers do this well w/ alpha) Without a critbuff tho, it would be exceedingly hard to take a trader down early, and traders do very well in long fights, they can root you, steal your nano, and heal...

B) Make dmg 100% again. ( Ya I know they said they wouldnt
do this, but they said the same thing about IPR )
Institute a 30% dmg cap.
Make evades check against critbuff (in PvP only) this would
probably be tricky to code tho...
Give the Vektor a RE req and make it
33% RE dependent
Give the Ithaca 2.5/2.5 attack recharge time

Im sure everyone loved that, since about 50% of the serious PvP population uses an Ithaca...but the current state of PvP is silly. Everyone that uses a gun, uses an Ithaca or switches assault rifles. Classes that traditionally dont use a gun get screwed (MA's, Advens) and wish they used an ithaca. (and do once they hit ability caps) So fights seem to go to those who can throw as many crits the fastest (Soldier alpha, Flashpoint NT alpha, Ithaca alpha) or who can heal off or prevent dmg the best (Soldiers/Traders/Docs).
But with the aforementioned changes, fights would last longer, low-crit guns would be viable again, classes like fixers and agents might actually use their green weapon skills instead of going shottie...PvP would have more variety and make more sense, imo.

Iniquitous

[Illith]

yes ofcourse noone wants the ma in the team this way. becourse they are the only ones who can crit ie do actual damage in pvm.
and pvp doc's and traders will be good. but a ma up close will be dangerus, as they can crit alot.

if you make crit self only. everyone seems to forget that ma crits are alot better now. just becourse it's half of what a shottie does. just consider the fast that a ma with vs or better would probarly crit 1/3 to 1/4 hits on your sorry hiney. as you would crit once in a blue moon on him.

ofcourse at higher lvl it woun't matter. everyone will just raise elec engi. and weapon smt. to use 10% crit chance or better. and you would be stuck in the exact same spot as now.

Originally posted by Iniquitous
The problem is...
The game favors any weapon with high crits in PvP, ie shotgun.
There are a few reasons for this:
1) Like Mikebond says, the evade vs. attack check seems to be completely divorced from the critbuff add on the chance to crit. So someone w/ UVC and a +10 scope will probably kill you in 9 shots no matter what your evades (34% chance, 3/9 crits)
2) The 100% percent heals make non-crit dmg laughable. I just found out today that my q96 chem streamer cant outdo a q70 healpet's heal. If I can't outdamage heals, I can't win.
3) Crits do constant dmg, meaning that they ignore AC. This means that even a underequipped shottie will hit the 40% dmg cap, no matter how cool the target thinks he is w/ his full set of flowers.

A lot of people b*tch and whine about traders, they are too good, etc. I think half of this is that traders use shotties almost exclusively. I have on several occasions lost to a trader before he even ransacked/deprived. Unfortunately FC will probably nerf the hell outta the trader prof, when they probably only need a slight nerf. (especially at lower levels) Then everyone will reroll a doc and use shottie, and everyone will complain about that. Here's what FC could do.

A) Make critbuff self only.
This is an easy fix, but it would screw a lot of things up. First off, PvM would be a nightmare for any shottie wielder. This would also make MAs less desirable in teams, and it would make heals even more powerful. Soldiers would suck even more pre-150, and probably not be so great afterwards. Docs would kill everything except a trader, those fights would go to who debuffed first...like it is now. Oh ya, traders would be *more* powerful, since any class without a debuff is pretty much screwed when a trader stacks deprive/ransack/whatever, because the trader can just root him and run if he gets in trouble, then heal to full. For most classes, the best chance to kill a trader comes when the trader is initially casting the debuffs, since they are a fairly long cast. (soldiers do this well w/ alpha) Without a critbuff tho, it would be exceedingly hard to take a trader down early, and traders do very well in long fights, they can root you, steal your nano, and heal...

B) Make dmg 100% again. ( Ya I know they said they wouldnt
do this, but they said the same thing about IPR )
Institute a 30% dmg cap.
Make evades check against critbuff (in PvP only) this would
probably be tricky to code tho...
Give the Vektor a RE req and make it
33% RE dependent
Give the Ithaca 2.5/2.5 attack recharge time

Im sure everyone loved that, since about 50% of the serious PvP population uses an Ithaca...but the current state of PvP is silly. Everyone that uses a gun, uses an Ithaca or switches assault rifles. Classes that traditionally dont use a gun get screwed (MA's, Advens) and wish they used an ithaca. (and do once they hit ability caps) So fights seem to go to those who can throw as many crits the fastest (Soldier alpha, Flashpoint NT alpha, Ithaca alpha) or who can heal off or prevent dmg the best (Soldiers/Traders/Docs).
But with the aforementioned changes, fights would last longer, low-crit guns would be viable again, classes like fixers and agents might actually use their green weapon skills instead of going shottie...PvP would have more variety and make more sense, imo.

Iniquitous

[buffu007]

"NTs are uber with crit buff"

ROFLMAO! Fear the crits of my pillow or galahad pistol ! :P

Regards,
Itburnz

[Arinia]

NTs with Ithacas are Uber with UVC.

Anyway, after starting a Trader, I have to say they take quite a bit of skill to play correctly

Someone said it before, I don't know who, but I'll summarize: Soldiers are the best PvP class because of TMS. Docs are hard if not impossible to kill. A well built and well played trader is very hard to kill, and a huge pain in the butt.

Speaking from personal experience, it takes a heck of a lot more skill to keep from dying in PvP as a trader than as an enforcer. Both still require some skill, and tactics, but there's waaaay more buttons to push with the trader

[______________Soccom]

Originally posted by Arinia
NTs with Ithacas are Uber with UVC.

Anyway, after starting a Trader, I have to say they take quite a bit of skill to play correctly

Someone said it before, I don't know who, but I'll summarize: Soldiers are the best PvP class because of TMS. Docs are hard if not impossible to kill. A well built and well played trader is very hard to kill, and a huge pain in the butt.

Speaking from personal experience, it takes a heck of a lot more skill to keep from dying in PvP as a trader than as an enforcer. Both still require some skill, and tactics, but there's waaaay more buttons to push with the trader

Another person who has seen NTs with Ithacas =)

/me closes eyes and crosses fingers
ALPHA!!
Press 1
Press 2
Press 3
/me opens eyes.. "they alive?"

[Ditka]

Originally posted by Irritated


MAs are uber with crit buff (MAs with shotguns is really messed up. I have seen this a few times now..)

rofl

R O F L

If there are MAs runnin around rippin up PVP with shotguns, then I don't see how FC can NOT nerf crits.

OMFG that is the funniest idea i've ever seen.

Run up, Fling crit, crit shot, dequip shotgun, heal, dimach, shen, bwt, brawl, requip shotgun, crit, heal, run out of zone cuz the target is dead 5 times from the shen by now.

OHH LOL

I can't stop laffing.

[Ditka]

I think a big part of the problem is that crits are necessary to team survival in PVM.

Bout the best I can think of (whchout really messing up PVM) is make crits be affected by armor in pvp. Its not much, but its a smallish change that would help some.

[______________Soccom]

Originally posted by grahamX0r


rofl

R O F L

If there are MAs runnin around rippin up PVP with shotguns, then I don't see how FC can NOT nerf crits.

OMFG that is the funniest idea i've ever seen.

Run up, Fling crit, crit shot, dequip shotgun, heal, dimach, shen, bwt, brawl, requip shotgun, crit, heal, run out of zone cuz the target is dead 5 times from the shen by now.

OHH LOL

I can't stop laffing.

The MA i have seen do this have used this to counter being rooted. They usually have to give up something else important to spare the IPs though =(.

[______________Znails]

just a side note as MA, u cant both shen and then bwt since the shen locks the MA attacks for 16 min or so but i like the idea, although u prolly gotta be quite highlevel before u can afford to spend ip for a shottie that u can self equip/unequip.

as far as roots.. .well crash of thunder line of nanos still seem to break roots although wont be able to heal for 15 secs..

[assassimon]

The first poster talked about trader twinks and someone that say that traders twinks aren't extremly powerful havn't played one or have never met one.

My trader twink got a 6 slot belt on at lvl 25, ql180 Vektor shotgun on at lvl 57, ql 150 ncus on at lvl 57 (could get higher but this was the only ncus I had.)

I could get my primary nano skills over 900 at lvl 57, with that I can use best divest/plunder in game and cuz I had all ncus in I didn't have much problem with buffs either(got all wrangle/divest/plunder nanos that I had uploaded, included 132 wrangle)

At lvl 62 I will be able to put on ql200 home defenders...

That's even possible to do on my MP until I'm 195.

totally unbuffed I crit for around same damage as my lvl 174 MP does, and he have full ql200 shotgun implants and maxed shotgun.

Anyone know any other prof that do 2.5k crits and can get 300 NCUs at lvl 60?

All of this is after the treatment changes and after they fixed tutoring.

(I did ofcourse need outside buffs to get that high shotgun)

[______________Soccom]

Take a trader self buffed at 57 and take a enforcer self buffed at 57.

Equip all you want of outside buffs before then to get the NCU and the shottie on. Have that 200 home defender on.. Its all good.

Now /term yourself and an enforcer do the same. Then self buff.
Go fight an orange. With your single skill, no special, slow firing, average reg damage weapon watch how many times you have to mez several times, heal up, mez, heal up, to just stay alive.

Have the enforcer in the same fight. Or MA .. or MP.. or Engie.. Or soldier... (at 50 I had a ql124 nova on. Coulda got higher but it wasn't worth the time). They will have much much easier time fighting that mob.

After 14.2 (which is sneaking up on us.. can't believe i logged on to 14.1 patch last night lol) Self buffing professions are going to be able to keep outside of the 25% penality much easier then all other professions. The only way a trader can self buff any combat skills is during combat and takes a lot of valuable time.
(example) I'm lvl 57 and i want to weild my ql150 shottie with no penalty, I have to stack debufs to get within the 20% range. That is 3 second cast and 6 second recharge, and they only last 3 minutes. During this time I cannot mez or heal. (You would need to have psimod/ts gifts to keep your shottie up high enough to keep a ql180 on with no penalty because that would enable you to stack to higher debuffs. even with extremely OE implants)

People that complain about traders need to try one. They take a lot more skill to play than some of the other classes. I'm not raggin on the other classes because i have characters in those classes also, but as stated above there are a lot more buttons to press lol. Traders to even be effective in solo play need to have outside buffs. With out Ess and a crit buff soloing yellows takes a lot of time and takes constant mezing.

Traders in team settings are a valuable asset.
Traders in pvp as stated before are godly. Only because of green shottie skill and the fact that no one in the upper lvls pvps without LMA or UVC running.

Shotguns should remain high crit weapons. What we need to do to balance them out is to decrease the range on them significantly. Why does a shotgun shoot farther than some rifles? Shotguns should have a range slighty higher than melee users..
With low range on shotguns everyone would start using the weapons for thier professions again. After 14.2 and if they ever decrease the range on shotguns, MAs and enforcers would start to be fantastic in pvp again. Which in my mind makes a little more cents (.02 that is =>).

I admit that nerfing some aspects of traders would help balance out pvp a little. So would nerfing shotguns, crit buffs, scopes, TMS, Outside buffs and everything else that makes the different professions unique. All nerfs to aide in the balancing of PVP would also greatly hurt PVM which is what most people (unfortunately) do in AO. I would hate to see all professions doing the same amount of damage just with different animations. (NT using nukes, Agent using rifle, enforcer using hammer/beam, MA using fists, Trader using shotgun)

Wouldn't this be boring as hell?

I would love full 25% zones everywhere though =)