The NSD Debate

[Javafan]

we quitters who are about to die, salute you

quitter456: if you find yourself alone, riding in fields of green, then do not be troubled- for you are in elysium, and you are already dead! and nerfed!

quitter789: haha

quitter007: hey, I'm the only true warrior here!

quitter042: baal > ares

quitter107: but I just got back

quitter092: nou

takun: I will combine the spirits of all these quitters to create the ultimate grenade weapon from which all other puny guns will be but mere trinkets

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quitter69: damnit, how could you forget to mention me

You forgot to mention that Takun's grenade will have an AoE stacking NSD proc of -15% reflects that can stack 4 times and which will also empty any soldier's ammo clip.

On successful hits or if any soldier is in the AoE's effect, a blue text message will display above the affected soldier saying: I accidentally a whole AMS!!!

Oh... and I'm in just because Umed makes amazing pasta and pizza.

[Obtena]

I think what people lose sight of is that NSD is also a very nice group PVP tool engis have and it's not only specifically targeted to soldiers.

If there is any adjustment to be made, it's certainly not to make some compromise on NSD in soldier's favour. It's hard to say what FC will do, but I think the only change to NSD we can predict is a cooldown.

[Takun]

Three points to make here.

1) None of this would be a problem if auras actually worked correctly. I feel auras should be instant cast with a 10-20 second cooldown to go along with this, auras should actually pulse farther than melee range (something like 25-30 would be nice) I also think we need visual effects to let us know when NSD is on the target (like how we can tell when Void is up, maybe something like the NT-s nano shelter graphic but bright white or black to show that the targets reflect is damaged) I also hope that our auras all get changed to the same stacking order so I can simply cast a new one on command (this is where the cool down comes into play) to swap to what ever is needed instead of having to manually cancel them.

2) I am fine with having our reflect aura sit somewhere around 30-50% in terms of debuffage, however to compensate I feel we can all pretty much agree that a soldiers current ability to stack reflect goes too high. (I feel a cap of about 60-75% is reasonable) It might go beyond the terms of the current debate, but like the NT-s shields I feel there should be another negative imposed on the soldier for TMS-ing not just spam it when ever it is off cooldown. (thinking decreased duration, a snare debuff or an attack rating debuff to compensate for going 'defense mode').

3) I have already tried making a grenade weapon out of the souls, hopes and dreams, and the tears of orphans, but to no avail.

PS give grenade engineers TMS.

[Quieter007]

You forgot to add I make excellent crepes. This information is as much relevant as the crying rivers from the soldier's forum section about NSD.

[Marinegent]

The amount of people who renamed there account names "Quitter" over this issue, before a verdict has even been reached, speaks volumes about the (mostly) childish engi population left in the game these days.

Look, NSD is as over powered against soldiers as RI is against agents, slowdown is against MA's (-1000 evade debuff), etc etc.

It needs to be modified, though not removed. As for the professions soldiers have trouble with, because it sure seems like a lot of people are REALLY misinformed in this area of a soldiers bio.. they are..

Traders
Nano-Technicians

Engineers

Fixers - too much def, and root + kite tactics make a fixer invulnerable.

Doctors (the really good docs take so much practice to be able to kill. And malpractice will tear a soldier a new one when AMS goes down)

Adventurers - the good ones are still pretty much invincible. Pressing coon is auto-win in while waiting for DoF to recycle.

Shades depending on the situation. Once they drain you for 600~ some AAO you can kiss full auto and burst good bye, and without a bit of luck AS spam does not work on the better shades.


So its a lot more than just 3 professions soldiers have trouble with. Its more in the ballpark of 7 even for an experienced player like myself. I'll never claim to be the best soldier of any time period, but by no means am I even close to the worst. being able to rip reflects isnt the only way a soldier can be S.O.L. It just takes an easy counter against our offense (high evades, lots of healing, spec blockers) something to easily manipulate us until our weak point (roots, snares, stuns) or something to straight rip past our only real defense (LE nukes, NSD, borrow reflect).

I'm not asking for NSD to be removed. But the effects should really be diminished against soldiers in particular. It could take one line of code to say if profession = soldier then -reflect AC = 25, instead of say 48. Little steps like that would be a huge push towards "balance".


I don't really expect 3/4 of you to understand because most of you seem like you have a personal vendetta against soldiers and your head is so far up your ass that you probably dont remember what light is, but to the few of you who can think rationally and over a broader spectrum and are not incredibly narrow minded... i look forward to your responses.

[Brofist]

I don't really expect 3/4 of you to understand because most of you seem like you have a personal vendetta against soldiers and your head is so far up your ass that you probably dont remember what light is, but to the few of you who can think rationally and over a broader spectrum and are not incredibly narrow minded... i look forward to your responses.

Buff NSD.

And I just noticed, that I have a Engineer/NT/Trader on his way to TL7. I guess I am the slayer of soldiers.

[MassDebater]

The amount of people who renamed there account names "Quitter" over this issue, before a verdict has even been reached, speaks volumes about the (mostly) childish engi population left in the game these days.

Look, NSD is as over powered against soldiers as RI is against agents, slowdown is against MA's (-1000 evade debuff), etc etc.

It needs to be modified, though not removed. As for the professions soldiers have trouble with, because it sure seems like a lot of people are REALLY misinformed in this area of a soldiers bio.. they are..

Traders
Nano-Technicians

Engineers

Fixers - too much def, and root + kite tactics make a fixer invulnerable.

Doctors (the really good docs take so much practice to be able to kill. And malpractice will tear a soldier a new one when AMS goes down)

Adventurers - the good ones are still pretty much invincible. Pressing coon is auto-win in while waiting for DoF to recycle.

Shades depending on the situation. Once they drain you for 600~ some AAO you can kiss full auto and burst good bye, and without a bit of luck AS spam does not work on the better shades.


So its a lot more than just 3 professions soldiers have trouble with. Its more in the ballpark of 7 even for an experienced player like myself. I'll never claim to be the best soldier of any time period, but by no means am I even close to the worst. being able to rip reflects isnt the only way a soldier can be S.O.L. It just takes an easy counter against our offense (high evades, lots of healing, spec blockers) something to easily manipulate us until our weak point (roots, snares, stuns) or something to straight rip past our only real defense (LE nukes, NSD, borrow reflect).

I'm not asking for NSD to be removed. But the effects should really be diminished against soldiers in particular. It could take one line of code to say if profession = soldier then -reflect AC = 25, instead of say 48. Little steps like that would be a huge push towards "balance".


I don't really expect 3/4 of you to understand because most of you seem like you have a personal vendetta against soldiers and your head is so far up your ass that you probably dont remember what light is, but to the few of you who can think rationally and over a broader spectrum and are not incredibly narrow minded... i look forward to your responses.

I conclusively proved in the other thread that NSD actually needs to be buffed to compensate for soldiers increase of reflects.

[Javafan]

The amount of people who renamed there account names "Quitter" over this issue, before a verdict has even been reached, speaks volumes about the (mostly) childish engi population left in the game these days.

Traders
Nano-Technicians

Engineers

Fixers - too much def, and root + kite tactics make a fixer invulnerable.

Doctors (the really good docs take so much practice to be able to kill. And malpractice will tear a soldier a new one when AMS goes down)

Adventurers - the good ones are still pretty much invincible. Pressing coon is auto-win in while waiting for DoF to recycle.

Shades depending on the situation. Once they drain you for 600~ some AAO you can kiss full auto and burst good bye, and without a bit of luck AS spam does not work on the better shades.

I'm not asking for NSD to be removed. But the effects should really be diminished against soldiers in particular. It could take one line of code to say if profession = soldier then -reflect AC = 25, instead of say 48. Little steps like that would be a huge push towards "balance".

I believe we can dig out some childish threads by you as well, and, if I remember correctly, some generated some good laughs. But if you do want to check out childish, check the NSD thread with all the soldiers in there.

LE Nukes are going bye-bye so stop aleady with that excuse.

Trader's BR has had its left nut crushed.

Poor soldiers have now fixers to add as their nemesis as well because they get snared and outrun by fixers. Also, they can't face roll them while soldiers can actually get tons more AR than engies. I bet it's easier to spam snares on our pets then on soldiers where you can actually twink NR. And everybody and their dog with half a brain can kite the pets and just use snare again when you break them free.

Good doctors - why do you want to kill a very good doctor in 10s. He should be able to provide some degree of challenge, wouldn't you say so? Also, you have +1 minute to try and kill him.

Advies are another story and the whine thread has been stuck under a box in the same closet where you can also find Klod's double/triple-AS Tigress. Go kick it in the nuts and see if you can stir something.

Shades may be a problem if they get the jump on you or if they have all their toolset up. Also, you do have -evades perks. Why do I bother? You'd probably get smushed through AMS anyway.

Sure, make NSD -25% if soldier's stacked reflects can't get higher than 75%. Otherwise, 35%, no less.

You forgot to add I make excellent crepes. This information is as much relevant as the crying rivers from the soldier's forum section about NSD.

Indeed, you're right about its relevance. But you must admit they are delicious and if there's more tears, Takun may be close to his doomsday grenade weapon (not that there's anything wrong with that).

[g8ss]

so you think the engineers renamed their names because of the incoming nsd nerf? Interesting. And you call us naive. There are quite a few other things that made them make the change.

Soldiers can always just do the unthinkable and perk NR2 and become immune to NSD and drains altogether while still being able to use TMS X. It may mean theres a small drop in AR since you cant cast the db nanos but then the only prof you have problems with would be a high evades fixer / adv. But this is so mind boggingly "insane and ludicrous" that none of the soldiers would ever imagine trying out once since it is "wrong". Like i said before, ive met a few soldiers who had done it and they literally wtfpwned almost everyone in bs. So stop crying nerf and learn something new.

While yes, nsd was and is a counter to soldiers and has been ever since they added the nano way way long ago it still takes a lot of effort to get it up on a GOOD soldier. If your already rooted / snared then you are SoL anyway.

All of this "whine nerf QQ" drama is because you expect to be able to be the top in pvm and then just casually jump into pvp and still be the king. You have to learn how to specialize if you want to be the top dog. You cant be both at the same time.

[Towerblock]

Somewhere, an engi logged in, and several soldiers just magically fell over dead.

If you let them tell it.

[sawlid]

The amount of people who renamed there account names "Quitter" over this issue, before a verdict has even been reached, speaks volumes about the (mostly) childish engi population left in the game these days.

lol, you really think we named ourselves after a debate about a player-made suggestion? That's like me saying you think this when in reality you don't, assumptions are bad mkay.

Your list is inconsistent. Are you trying to list professions which are hard for a soldier to kill or which kill a soldier easily? They are not one in the same.

-An engineer has two root grafts, a blind perk, two snare mines and a pet snare which doesn't land often, that doesn't translate 100% soldier can't escape unless said soldier just stands still..
-A doctor isn't a threat at all, if the alpha fails and AMS is going down, run away, what's the doctor going to do, it can't cast MP and chase you simultaneously.
-Fixer/Shade -> see rec3, it's a long swap but AS works, although RI is needed to be able to kill a fixer or at least force it to bail.

Actually, I challenge you to go SMG/onehander and have the correct perk setup (telling would be too easy), and you'll be amazed when:

-Engineer blockers are gone
-Doctors feel the power of two potentially capping specials, a true stun and tons of DD perks
-You don't have to swap a gun to actually hurt fixers and shades

I don't really expect 3/4 of you to understand because most of you seem like you have a personal vendetta against soldiers and your head is so far up your ass that you probably dont remember what light is

Ad hominems aren't an argument, they're just an insult. You provide your interpretation of the facts, we provide ours. Guess what, not everybody thinks the same, but that's life, a person can't get anywhere by standing firmly on their side of the fence without taking into account the outside world.

[Marinegent]

Soldiers can always just do the unthinkable and perk NR2 and become immune to NSD and drains altogether while still being able to use TMS

Doesn't work. I tried it.

l
-An engineer has two root grafts, a blind perk, two snare mines and a pet snare which doesn't land often, that doesn't translate 100% soldier can't escape unless said soldier just stands still..
-A doctor isn't a threat at all, if the alpha fails and AMS is going down, run away, what's the doctor going to do, it can't cast MP and chase you simultaneously.
-Fixer/Shade -> see rec3, it's a long swap but AS works, although RI is needed to be able to kill a fixer or at least force it to bail.

Actually, I challenge you to go SMG/onehander and have the correct perk setup (telling would be too easy), and you'll be amazed when:

-Engineer blockers are gone
-Doctors feel the power of two potentially capping specials, a true stun and tons of DD perks
-You don't have to swap a gun to actually hurt fixers and shades

One hander still barely dents fixers and shades. Takes much luck with getting capped aimedshots to be effective, something even EC3 doesnt do well. And the onehander is much worse.

as for the 'correct' perk setup you refer to.. im the person who made all the posts on the soldier forum the last several months that inspired the 'correct' setup. I wasnt the first soldier who DID it but I was the first to reveal it to the public. Afaik only one other soldier on RK2 did it before me.

Also, the professions we have a hard time killing that i listed, doctor, fixer, shade, advy.. they kill us easily after AMS has expired (not that most dont, but they can be easily immune to us during AMS where as some other 6 professions cant be so immune. does not include nt/trader/engi in that 6)

Even when engineer blockers are gone, it hardly matters. On BS (which is when im forced to fight engis otherwise i avoid them at all costs) i will kite engis constantly. Assuming they dont have the snare or blind aura running (which they ALWAYS have one or the other) both impeding my ability to avoid the engineer effectively, i will kite the blockers, and continue to spam specials. Most engi's with a brain will coon after i drop them to 50-60% and while i can kite im AM still taking a lot of damage due to NSD inevitably being on me because the engi can spam insta-cast the nano if im close enough.. and like i said before.. between blind or snare they will catch up..

point being, i can go over how things play out all day long, but in the end, 9 times out of 10 the engineer will kill even the best soldier. That isnt balanced. Just the facts. So it should be adjusted some to level the playing field. I would never expect 50/50 chance, but right now being 10/90, something should be modified. I doubt engis will give up spec blockers, so change nsd a little to make it more along the lines of 30/70. Thats the whole ****ing point to all this non-sense.

[Brofist]

Doesn't work. I tried it.
as for the 'correct' perk setup you refer to.. im the person who made all the posts on the soldier forum the last several months that inspired the 'correct' setup. I wasnt the first soldier who DID it but I was the first to reveal it to the public. Afaik only one other soldier on RK2 did it before me.

And then you edited your setup to be a Assault Rifle setup.

[g8ss]

you tried using NR2 against a pvp speced engineer not a tradeskill speced engineer? It works against the pvp ones but it doesnt work against the tradeskill ones. The tradeskiller engineers most of the time arent the brightest of the bunch in pvp and you can just safely ignore them and kite away to your hearts desire and kill em. The pvp speced engineers are the ones you really should be worrying about.

There is a huge differance in nanoskills between those two and i tried landing NSD on a friends soldier who wasnt even twinked to the max who just perked NR2 to test. I landed 2 / 10 on average on him while in default pvp gear. If i was wearing a control eye + scouts + different perks then it would land 9/10, yes.

edit: But since almost every soldier is utterly convinced this is so overpowered to the core and the ability should be removed from the game altogether, along with blockers while your at it, then no soldier is willing to even try to beat the mechanics but rather change the mechanics. Instead of learning how to play, change the game instead. Good luck. Im done with trying to argue with people who even refuse to try to think. There are ways to beat the current NSD (not just the one i mentioned) but since no soldier is willing to try...

[Javafan]

Somewhere, an engi logged in, and several soldiers just magically fell over dead.

If you let them tell it.

Engineers have hacked the satellites and Orbital weapon platforms and are able to deliver an engineered attack that targets only soldiers server-wide.

The codename for this project is "I accidentally a whole AMS" and it delivers a huge payload on the targets that strips the soldiers of any reflects and if they're AMSed, they are left stunned for the entire duration of their AMS, in addition to a 2s tick 5k DoT.

[Alternity]

Got both 220/30 soldier and engineer, NSD is fine lol

[Quieter007]

Got both 220/30 soldier and engineer, NSD is fine lol

Thanks god we got somebody with a clue and not narrow minded, that plays both professions and can speak from experience.

_________________________________________________

Fit rage post accusing 3/4 of engis to be crybabies and childish persons

As for Marinegent, go back to your profession forum.
Coming in here, trying to pretend to know things you don't have a clue about, posting some inconsistent gibberish about what you think it's a hard counter for your soldier and what you think would be a step over for "balance" doesn't really add anything to the table.

All we hear from you soldiers is "Nerf NSD". If you hate it that much, wait till we see something moving in the front of capped %reflect after the rebalance and we will talk about toning down NSD. As of now, NSD if something needs to get buffed. It's been -48 Reflects for years, while % of reflects from soldiers side got improved, together with HD, HP, NR, Evades , you name it.

So yeah, I'm one of those with my head up my ass. It's the only way I know to argue with people like you. Eye for an eye, I guess.

[Liamboru]

Somewhere, an engi logged in...If you let them tell it.

And if you doubt that part, then all you need do is say so and you will get offers by scores of them to log more BY mules than you could shake a stick at (but not too hard, soldiers are rather fragile types, from what I am reading).

[Marinegent]

And then you edited your setup to be a Assault Rifle setup.

Because I went for a full out AAD/evade setup and SMG is not very effective at all with 2900 static SMG, and even less RE (2650~) attack rating?

Assault rifle for an AAD setup, SMG for AAO.

Schimples!

[Javafan]

Assuming they dont have the snare or blind aura running (which they ALWAYS have one or the other) both impeding my ability to avoid the engineer effectively, i will kite the blockers, and continue to spam specials. Most engi's with a brain will coon after i drop them to 50-60% and while i can kite im AM still taking a lot of damage due to NSD inevitably being on me because the engi can spam insta-cast the nano if im close enough.. and like i said before.. between blind or snare they will catch up..

point being, i can go over how things play out all day long, but in the end, 9 times out of 10 the engineer will kill even the best soldier. That isnt balanced. Just the facts. So it should be adjusted some to level the playing field. I would never expect 50/50 chance, but right now being 10/90, something should be modified. I doubt engis will give up spec blockers, so change nsd a little to make it more along the lines of 30/70. Thats the whole ****ing point to all this non-sense.

The point is that I have to agree with my 007 sibling about you crawling back to your forum.

I have marked some highlight of your rant:

- you can have blind aura running together with snare aura because blind is self while the snare is on the pets
- you can choose between blind or NSD auras

So in BS, all the engies you fight have times to follow while you abuse LoS to lose the pets while they swap between blind and NSD? You do know that you need to manually terminate NSD to cast DVP which will break on everything (especially since you say that you getting constantly attacked) .

As for the snare, if you are getting constantly snared, you are either a bad kiter or just have $hitty luck since you seems to catch all snare aura ticks Takes quite a bit to recast the snare which also has quite a low range.