Cut MA (and Melee) docs a break.

[Doctorhyde]

Ok, :breathe: I'm going to try and say this in a calm enough manner that maybe something will be done about it.

Summary: We deserve MultiMelee on the Xan symbs at least as much as we deserved MultiRanged.

Here is the reason why this is a problem to me: As a Shen MA doc I have a choice to make.

1) Equip Xan Alpha Right and Left Wrist symbiants to get GTH resistance and some nice modifiers and then give up on taking my Shens off (unless I want to take them off for good or until another full perk reset and retwink). Giving up Aimed Shot and Sneak Attack for PvP (while -not- getting the Blaze DoT).

2) NOT equip one of those symbiants and give up their goodness even though there is no technical reason why I can't equip them.

Now ... I know that non-trox will probably not have this problem to the same extreme. But troxdocs have been around for years. And even if we weren't, it should not require -any- doc to do a full perk reset every time they want to put weapons back on and/or give up on one of these symbs.

Pistol docs not only get the MR love on the new symbiants but overall had it easier to equip pistols anyway (equal amounts of MR vs MM buffing available and 50 points less required ... which is significant at these levels). And they have the Blaze DoT to "compensate" for no Aimed Shot ... even though they have the advantage of range over pistols.

There are some quite simple fixes (and tbh, all 3 happening would not only be welcome but quite fair) for this:


* Put Multi Melee on the Left Wrist just like it got Multi Ranged.

* Give us a doc-friendly MA weapon option with a lower MM requirement

* Add the Dr. Blaze tag (to fists, Shens and any doc-friendly MA weapon) to MA Docs


I really don't care if the trolls feast on this. I know that a MA doc starts out at a disadvantage (PvP and PvM ... yeah we can pump damage up close in PvM but we sacrifice range for it and that is a big thing). I know that MA has always been a Doctor option. I know that FC has been giving us more MA support in our symbiants (and even 1HB in our Star ... ). I know that MA docs don't have any advantages in PvP over pistol (or AS) docs. I know that it wouldn't take much to "fix" this issue to at least some degree.

Heck I know I'm probably the odd one out here but I would have given up MA in my foot (never had it anyway and never put an implant there) to get MM in my left wrist.

I also know I won't be bringing it up again for awhile. Tonight I should have twinked my Xans on (and yeah, for a trox it is still twinking a fair amount). My account is frozen shortly (might happen mid-twink, dunno). I really hope FC addresses this. If not then when I get back I have to decide if I'm finally IPRing to pistol (don't want to but I now have full support for it in my gear), taking out a symbiant (don't want to) or giving up on anything but punching with low AR in PvP.

[Mud]

bump!!!

fix this so I can play my trox doc too!

[Doctorhyde]

And I'm not even asking for equal support for MA compared to Pistols ... if I was I'd be asking for Brawl in Support symbs (like Pistol got Burst). I just want the huge difference in equipability addressed. Even if we get MM support in the L.Wrist (like Pistols) we'd still be 50 points higher on MM than Pistols.

Fix please.

[Female]

Bump for the friendly neighborhood trox!

[Berinda]

Even with the MR from the alpha symbs, a pistol doc isn't taking off their guns and putting them back on without a lot of help. You also act as if there's no implants in these slots that ranged doctors find superior to symbs.

I do agree that the symbs should have gotten MM with the MR, but as far as equipability goes docs of all types are in similar positions. Also, the ability to slam out damage up close in PvM most definitely means MA docs should not have access to the Blaze nano in PvP. It's about sacrifice - you don't see me whining my Envy soldier should have 3.6k AR with an SMG.

MA docs have to twink MM to put on their shen's. Ranged docs have to twink MR to put on their pistols. Once one of those equipped weapons come off, it's a lot of pain to get it back on.

[Doctorhyde]

Even with the MR from the alpha symbs, a pistol doc isn't taking off their guns and putting them back on without a lot of help.

In which case it should be obvious, given the much higher reqs on the Shens, that MA docs deserve at least that much.

You also act as if there's no implants in these slots that ranged doctors find superior to symbs.

I actually didn't even discuss that aspect. But given the new Xan symbs I fully expect this to start to be the case with around a 30% exception on the R.Arm for those docs looking to min burst recharge without expensive armor.

And I didn't even ask for MM on the R.Wrist symb even though Pistol users got it on both. And I didn't ask for it on the Eye symbiant, either, even though MM is there as well. Heck, we deserve it on those two as well. I certainly don't imagine you'll see any Pistol doc choose not to have a Xan eye symbiant in if they can equip it, so yep, I hereby expand the request to having Multi Melee in my eye as well.

I had no particular issue with using QL300 wrist implants back when pistol docs did the same. But they won't anymore. I shouldn't have to, either.

I do agree that the symbs should have gotten MM with the MR

Then why are you sounding so much like you're arguing against the thread? I think I know the answer here, and I'm not surprised by it, but you're contradictory if you agree yet bring up ways to go against it.

but as far as equipability goes docs of all types are in similar positions.

They were ... pre-Xan. But now the Pistol docs have a massive boost in Multi while MA docs got none. If you were talking pre-Xan you'd be right.

Also, the ability to slam out damage up close in PvM most definitely means MA docs should not have access to the Blaze nano in PvP. It's about sacrifice - you don't see me whining my Envy soldier should have 3.6k AR with an SMG.

I see plenty of whines about Envy. Its a different subject and can stay out of here. Not even closely related.

Pistol docs can shoot and proc you from across the room. MA docs suffer from ALL of the disadvantages of Melee in PvP with worse runspeed than any other melee class and absolutely none of their snare/root mitigation and the shortest weapon range and lowest AR to try and land those close-in punches. We already suck down far more PvP disadvantages than would be overcome by the Blaze DoT. Blaze was restricted to Doctor weapons to prevent people from comboing AS and the DoT. Period.

If you fear a MA Doc more than a Pistol doc in anything but a duel then you don't run around enough. And its been said repeatedly that AO won't balance for 1:1 PvP anymore so duel shouldn't be an issue.

MA docs in ranged PvP have far more problems than even Pistol docs. I like my MA doc, this isn't a thread saying MA sucks. All I ask for is equality with other docs. Even with a Blaze tag on a MA friendly weapon we would still be below pistol docs on the group PvP rungs. Besides, this thread could be satisfied (not happily, but satisfied) by putting MM on a single symb (whereas, again, Pistol users got all -3- symb locations for MR).

MA docs have to twink MM to put on their shen's. Ranged docs have to twink MR to put on their pistols. Once one of those equipped weapons come off, it's a lot of pain to get it back on.

And even with getting MM on the L. Wrist we would still need to squeeze to get them on. The difference is we wouldn't need a full perk reset and to swap other symbs off/on to do it. Right now it would be the difference between being able to get the Shen on with twinking but -not- needing to remove 2 QL300 symbs to do it. For my doc to get both Doc wrist symbs on and have Shens equipped I have to pop my Xan -eye- out. Its extreme. And I'm not even sure -that- will work in my trox case ... I have to go prove it right now

PS. Beri, we never get along in these threads much ... so just to be clear ... here's your shot for a last word between us on this subject cause I'm reserving future replies for other folks.

[Doctorhyde]

Right now it would be the difference between being able to get the Shen on with twinking but -not- needing to remove 2 QL300 symbs to do it. For my doc to get both Doc wrist symbs on and have Shens equipped I have to pop my Xan -eye- out. Its extreme. And I'm not even sure -that- will work in my trox case ... I have to go prove it right now

Well, based on my calcs, which I'm not 100% sure of but I'm close, I can't equip Xan eye and both wrists and still get 2x Shens on. It's close. But I'm 25 or so points shy of the MM to equip the Shens after getting the wrists on, and the wrists require either the eye or buffing weapons.

I can definitely get all Xans on (except for the brain, which trox is limited to 280 on) right now. I can definitely get Shens on. But I probably can't do both. So I'll be skipping the right wrist (but I'm equipping it just to be able to have done it . It shouldn't surprise me so much I guess, since I'm basically trying to equip Shens with no MM in my implants.

Troxness bites in this case. But even if it were possible to squeeze all 3 on ... which I think it is for all other breeds ... it would still be a nightmare for any breed. It would only require work (lots of swaps, a couple of perks, PLENTY to prevent active swapping), not nightmares, if we had just 1/2 (shiny spot) or 3/4ths (Shiny+Bright) of the support that the pistol users got.

EDIT: I think I'll barely pull it off (Xan eye/wrists) if I blow up some poor orgmate's tower spot for a temporary Conductor. Still ... I don't buy that this is the way it should be. Equal love please ... we got the MA skill ... we should get the Multi-support, too. Stop the 1/2way done stuff on supporting stuff. Tired. Must. Sleep.

[Mud]

rebump

[Dochunter]

Give meh MM skill in new xan symbs so there i can put them on my trox doc...

[blasteur32]

bump!!!!!!!!

[lonewolf2k7]

dude MA need shens more than docs =/ FC need to give MA something in the xan booster lol everone gets better weps and new items ma gets jack....

[Doctorhyde]

dude MA need shens more than docs =/ FC need to give MA something in the xan booster lol everone gets better weps and new items ma gets jack....

While you struggle with getting new MA gear we struggle with equipping the old stuff with our new symbs. Please make MA-specific suggestions in a MA thread, not a Doc thread.

[Xyphos]

bump.
heal plz?

[Berinda]

Then why are you sounding so much like you're arguing against the thread? I think I know the answer here, and I'm not surprised by it, but you're contradictory if you agree yet bring up ways to go against it.

Nowhere did I disagree MM shouldn't be included in the new support symbs - you made that up. I know the answer here, it's because you like to whine about how much of a victim you are.

What I'm arguing against is your logic - the new MR boosts won't allow ranged docs to take off their weapons and put them back on without a lot of help. I also don't think melee docs should have access to the Blaze nano because it's a sacrifice of not using the pistols.

PS. Beri, we never get along in these threads much ... so just to be clear ... here's your shot for a last word between us on this subject cause I'm reserving future replies for other folks.

Well, here's your chance to stop condescending to me and not claim that I can't post on an open forum not owned by you because you "reserved" space in it.

[Hacre]

Since when should Docs be proficient in all weapon types they have some support for, equally?

Support symbs in many cases totally surpass the previously coveted Control symbiants now.

Also, since when did MA support == Shen Stick support? MA in its purest form, is fists. Fists have no MM requirement.

DD setups for non combat profs often involve out of template tweaks, non symbiant implants equipped, dark blue skills raised, etc etc.

By this logic, Crats have pistol support. I want to be a DD Crat and use a SOCOM or a BigBurger. Therefore I should get Full Auto in my right arm symbiant please. Because Crats have always had Pistol support, the BigBurger is a pistol, I'm already sacrificing PvP performance and I'm not getting the kind of support that my Burst only counterparts are getting.

[lonewolf2k7]

Since when should Docs be proficient in all weapon types they have some support for, equally? Also, since when did MA support == Shen Stick support? MA in its purest form, is fists. Fists have no MM requirement.

Shens were made for MA just becouse docs can use them doesnt mean they need too for example the doc pistols let you use better dots....

While you struggle with getting new MA gear we struggle with equipping the old stuff with our new symbs. Please make MA-specific suggestions in a MA thread, not a Doc thread.

Then i can say put MA tag on shen sticks ! why should docs beable to use weps that are not made for them...

and btw Docs are not DDers who cares what weps they use.. they are for teams that need healing not dd..

[Kazeran]

Since when should Docs be proficient in all weapon types they have some support for, equally?

we dont, notice shotty and RE dont arnt in support symbs

Also, since when did MA support == Shen Stick support? MA in its purest form, is fists. Fists have no MM requirement.

yea your right , but pistols in its purest form dont have FA

By this logic, Crats have pistol support.....

yes, by logic and facts crats whine alot too , but this isnt that logic, its asking for non-combat support for weapons not weapon support itself or special support for the speicals the weapon has

Shens were made for MA just becouse docs can use them doesnt mean they need too for example the doc pistols let you use better dots....

shens were made for ppl who use MA, if it was ment only for MA's it would have a lock on it

Then i can say put MA tag on shen sticks ! why should docs beable to use weps that are not made for them...

same reasons fixers can use Dshark, or engis MA/RE, and many more examples... its because in AO we have a thing called freedom of weapon choice (to a point ofc) and that lets us use anything we want to use even if its not ment for us

and btw Docs are not DDers who cares what weps they use.. they are for teams that need healing not dd..

if thats true, why do you care if we use Shens?



Aside from the whining bump for balancing muti melee/ranged in support symbs or least some love if not all 3 clusters ( its not like we are asking for brawl and dimach now )

[Hacre]

we dont, notice shotty and RE dont arnt in support symbs

But you're asking for multi melee. Melee weapons aren't a weapon supported for Doctors as proficiently as say, Pistols are.

yea your right , but pistols in its purest form dont have FA

But I'm not asking for FA support in Control symbiants. You're asking for Multi Melee support so you can use MA weapons.

yes, by logic and facts crats whine alot too , but this isnt that logic, its asking for non-combat support for weapons not weapon support itself or special support for the speicals the weapon has

It's asking for support in symbiants to equip that weapon more easily. Thus implying a more innate support in your profession's template for that weapon.

shens were made for ppl who use MA, if it was ment only for MA's it would have a lock on it

Not necessarily, this is a straw man argument. It is made easier for the class proficient in MA weaponry via their symbiant support.

same reasons fixers can use Dshark, or engis MA/RE, and many more examples... its because in AO we have a thing called freedom of weapon choice (to a point ofc) and that lets us use anything we want to use even if its not ment for us

Yes we do, that's what refined implants are for, as opposed to a catch all symbiant intended for your character class.

By this logic, or lack of, I should ask for burst in Infantry symbiants because I want to use a DShark on my Keeper.

Aside from the whining bump for balancing muti melee/ranged in support symbs or least some love if not all 3 clusters ( its not like we are asking for brawl and dimach now )

It doesn't matter what you're asking for, ultimately your request is a slippery slope. What do you ask for if multi melee is granted? Aimed Shot? Shotgun?

The whole point of symbiants is that the classes that use them can use them along with a "preferred" choice of weaponry as dictated by Funcom. Sometimes this preference falls down, usually in PvP performance which is constantly an issue being argued on these forums.

However, the better solution to that, is a fix to the supported weaponry as opposed to making more weaponry obsolete by caving to the requests of randoms in the forum community and tossing in various clusters into already existing symbiants.

There have been MA docs, yes, there's even been MA docs that used the BoBs. Your decision to go with Shen Sticks doesn't automatically entitle you to having your life using them made easier by having various buffs added to your profession's symbiants.

[Kazeran]

gawd cant you wait at least a day before replying like that

Yes, melee weapons arnt as supported as ranged weapons are anymore due to xan symbs and research. We want to keep it balanced however the way it was before Xan symbs (research diffrence between MA and pistol wasn't that great). We arnt asking for more AR more MA or more melee specials just multi range. Why this is such a big deal idk, no one screamed and compalined when all that ranged love got added to support symbs.

Iam also aware that to use diffrent weapons you must make sacrifice (Lol at how much i could say about other profs and this topic) and by being melee and giving up the 1k dot for pvp we already do. But we arnt asking to use diffrent weapons MA was already 1 of the major lines for doctors. We are simply asking for multi melee to help melee doc stay on par with ranged ones.

No. i wouldnt ask for AS in support symbs ever, iam very much for getting support profs (all of them) away from using AS (including crats who scream for AS pistols). As for other weapon lines i wouldnt ask either though iam sure 1 cluster wouldnt hurt for any 1 weapon but iam not getting into that because thats asking for something thats not already part of what we have or should be. Multi melee isnt part of our symbs either but it should be like i already said to keep the balance between ranged and melee.

Just incase you didnt know from looking at my siggy, i use neither Shens or BoB's. I use fists and swap for bow for AS, and my rocket. So multi melee in our symbs means little to me because i dont use MA based weapons, however i will still asked for it because i dont want to see doctors, one of the few profs that had a wide weapon choice, be cookie cuttered into one weapon line.

If its such a big deal to ask for something that doesnt benifit us in any other way to putting on weapons i will hate to see what people would say if we asked for more MA or pistol .

[Doctorhyde]

But you're asking for multi melee. Melee weapons aren't a weapon supported for Doctors as proficiently as say, Pistols are.

I call Bull. I'm only going to respond to that one issue from the current arguments against because the responses to it, in my opinion, are that strong for this idea.


1) MA has been in Doctor symbs since day 1 ... look at the R.Hand symbiant.

2) Pistol wasn't in Doc symbs until Xan symbs with the exception of the Ado brain symbiant.

3) Doctors have been doing MA and 1HE since day 1 as well. And for a long time 1HE melee was -the- doc flavor due to IS weapons.

Pistols weren't even a 2nd or 3rd (probably not even 4th) most common weapon for the years up until Dreadloch pistols came out. MBC, SMG and Shotgun were the main doc weapons of choice through most of the Pre-LE years. Pistols were more common than MA until BoBs came out, but then MA shot to the front of that pack. Pistols weren't the cookiecutter of choice until Dreadlochs. And even then they got no extra symb support.

4) During the same upgrade that gave 3 Pistol slots to docs via symbiants MA was also upgraded. Both are equally triple-implanted now.

5) We had zero MultiRanged support in symbs before the Xan symbiants. The massive buffing of MultiRanged is brand spanking new.

6) MA was given a LE research line just like pistols. It didn't get quite as much buff but it got a very serious amount.

And I believe these basic arguments trump most of the other BS calls of "but docs never got MA support" and the similar arguments. This is the problem with bringing out 1 single cookiecutter weapon ... people just naturally now assign Docs to Pistols and move on because a dev in FC decided one day that they would only focus on pistols.