Poll: Do you think the changes in 17.1 made PvP more or less enjoyable

[Yue]

How often do you actually have rrfe in bs?

i always have reflect graft or rrfe. ppl dont buff you? well np team an agent that goes fp sold for you.

well not always but you get the point.

[Loucretia]

i always have reflect graft or rrfe. ppl dont buff you? well np team an agent that goes fp sold for you.

well not always but you get the point.

Not really. Graft has long recharge, few people bother to buff others except at start tho many ignore you then, and after the first death, your pretty much SB'd in my experience.

[Yue]

well thats why i say team them. thats the reason i prefer going up with a fixer adv doc and agent fp sol in team. because i know perfectly well how hard it is to get buffed on bs.

someone may say cocoon got nerfed and it hurts - i agree.

someone may say the 40% caps are nerfed and it hurts even more - i completely agree.

but arguing utterly wrong about current absorb and cap mechanics to the point where some actually say that you could do a 25k as (go back a few pages right before i started posting about the caps and youll see what i mean) so that both cocoon is ripped through by an as and you get a 40% hit on a keeper/enf with the very same as... thats something i cant accept. because its wrong.

[Ithnag]

I completley agree that you won't get that number, but remember under TL7 the HP is lower, the biococoon absorb gets lower too and you can still get 13k AS's and to a lesser degree 15k FA, then you can perfectly get people with lower healing capabilities getting his absorb ripped and then being close to or capped right away 40%, same goes with a TL5 soldier getting hit for more or less 3k under TMS. The situation of absorbs and reflects is really bad at TL7 but at lower levels it is even worse.

[Loucretia]

well thats why i say team them. thats the reason i prefer going up with a fixer adv doc and agent fp sol in team. because i know perfectly well how hard it is to get buffed on bs.

someone may say cocoon got nerfed and it hurts - i agree.

someone may say the 40% caps are nerfed and it hurts even more - i completely agree.

but arguing utterly wrong about current absorb and cap mechanics to the point where some actually say that you could do a 25k as (go back a few pages right before i started posting about the caps and youll see what i mean) so that both cocoon is ripped through by an as and you get a 40% hit on a keeper/enf with the very same as... thats something i cant accept. because its wrong.

Good plan, but a lot of people dont want to team. Whether because they think they are uber and want to farm titles or what i dont know.

[Satisguard]

the actual damage you deal max on a cocoon profession is 0.67*13k hardcap is 8710. thats.. bla bla bunch of BS..

Max is 40% EVEN WITH rrfe and % reflect from bio perks, they NO LONGER minimize damg vs decent specials, a 10 bullet FA from shark on a enf is 40% of hp, regardless of reflects. And it's np for a sol to get insane AS on enf's as well, even though rrfe.

[Yue]

good god i wonder if you actually read my posts satisguard.

the whole stuff i have been arguing was against ppl saying they can do 40% through bio when they have reflect(or 40% through bio on enf/keeper with a single as even if they dont have any reflect) not that you cant actually do 40% hits even with reflect and that the main problem is actually the increased caps even if they have 20k hp.

anyway most ppl know that lowered caps were key survivability to alot of professions in masspvp. with rrfe and reflect bracer that was 25% caps. 40% caps means that even a doc in your team wont be able to react in time to save you. ppl should survive longer with a doc around right? then how come docs corpse heal plenty after the patch?

it doesnt matter if youre an enf, doc, soldier( i saw a deperked fixer do a 40% cap hit through pns today lol...), mp, trader, crat, ma, fixer, keeper, shade or whoever i forgot it hurts. multiple 40% specials means certain death. noone can save you from that. its not only enfs that were left defenseless. in fact with rrfe your cocoon might actually last long enough to have a succesfully executed on your perks before you drop like a fly. HOWEVER if you have 30k hp and rrfe noone will ever be able to cap an as on you. thats impossible by game mechanics definition. have you ever seen enforcers with massive hp and 3 220 docs in team call targets at nw? i have. theyre unkillable unless ppl decide to assist properly or an alpha team to spam their specials on countdown.

the caps hurt. i cant say it often enough. and its not only enforcers or cocoon professions that suffer like some ppl here like to say.

is it clear enough now what i mean satisguard?

[Purple77]

less

[Redadv]

PvP is less enjoyable, the fun I had in pvp was the hard fights, against skilled players, that revolved around the full professions toolset, rather than simply "AS, FA, AS"

the way i see it, LE has basically made everyone have the equivalent of MR, and removed all other forms of defences.

[Rktim]

Hmmm im just going to snip in whith a clarification...

Lets use Cocoon in the first 2 examples:

1.1:
If a enforcer has 25k HP he has a 40% cap of 10.000..
Now if a soldier dose a 25bullet FA whith a Shark he can hit for max 15k dmg
If the Enforcer has coocon up he will take away 10.000 of these 15k
After that 5k is left and hits the enforcer for 5k aka 20% of his HP

Now we put on RRFE:

1.2:
Once again the soldier hits the enforcer for 15k
The first thing that happens now is that the 15k is reduced whith 30% from RRFE
Aka 15k is now only 10500
The enforcers coocoon is hit for 10500..
500 points hit the enforcer

So in outher words its impossible to 40% cap a enforcer that has coocon up.. these are just straight facts... Only way it would be possible is if the coon has already taken a burst or similar and afew normal hits first but this time it dident..

Now whitout Coocon:

2.1:
The Soldier dose a 15k hit again.
The enforcer has no protection atall so 15k hits the enforcer
However 40% Cap kicks in and takes down the dmg from 15k to 10k
Those 10k hits the enforcer

Whith RRFE:

2.2:
The soldier hits for 15k
The enforcer has RRFE so 30% is removed
The enforcer is hit for 9000 point

As you can see in example 1.1 and 1.2 Its not possible to do a 40% Cap throu Cocoon unless the person using the coocon has less then 12501 HP whitout RRFE. Asuming the attacker is using FA... However its possible to kill the coocon whith 1 special and do some dmg to the target in 1.1 but not 1.2..

This is why alot of people claim that reflects dont mather atall.. Aka a soldier that has 20k HP he will still get hit for 40% even if PNS is up.. but at 25k HP it would actuly take away afew hundred points of dmg from the special and it will start working as a dmg reducer again. All tho for moast proffesions it dosent mather if they get hit for 15k or 9k they will still be 40% caped at around 5k

If you instead use AS you will hit for MAX 3.000 throu Cocoon whitout reflects and it will only take away 9100 points from the coocon there by not even passing if you got RRFE
Also AS woudlent hit for more then 9100 if you have RRFE while it would hit for 10k if you dont have it.. aka RRFE still helps if you have alot of HP

From this you can draw the conclution that if you get 25kish HP AND RRFE you will get hit for less and less of you total HP the more HP you got.. My advice to enforcers is for them to max out on HP as much as possible, throw on reflcet bracers and get RRFE... The badest FAs will only do about 20% of your total HP and AS even less... shuld give you some extra time.. I know its not going to help alot but it shuld be slightly benefital ower only having 25-30k HP

But then again.. in the end.. moast have less then 19500 HP hence reflects will do nothing for them.. ATALL.. (unless they got coocon cuse then as shown it will help by making sertain that cocoon can take atleast 1 special whitout you getting hurt for more then 500 points.. and TBH.. not everyone can do a 15k PvP FA....)

PLEAS not that thers nothing to be discussed here.. these are just the FACTS and facts are NOT going to change only becuse you have anouther opinion.. im ONLY clarifying FACTS nothing else... THIS IS how it IS.. Im sorry if you thouth it worked in some outher way or that enforcers can be caped throu cocoon and so on and so on but they cant.. period.. no its not open for discussion cuse they cant.. its a fact of reality.. im sorry but if you feal like aruging about this you where wrong.. And no im not saying this to Xaun or any outher poster.. im saying it to whoever thats reading this and gets the erge to respond "omg they so can be caped throu Cocoon" becuse they cant.. plain and simple.. i have given you the facts.. deal whith the fact that its time you change your wieve on how AO works and that its time for you to admit to yourself that you where wrong.. Its ok.. Its human to be wrong.. just alow yourself to face that you where wrong and let it be..
aka.. Facts are facts..


EDIT: The math here can be pritty confusing.. im still editing the numbers back and forth =P But if you got RRFE a AS wount hit trou Cocoon..

[CarbonumCopy]

PLEAS not that thers nothing to be discussed here.. these are just the FACTS and facts are NOT going to change only becuse you have anouther opinion.. im ONLY clarifying FACTS nothing else... THIS IS how it IS.. Im sorry if you thouth it worked in some outher way or that enforcers can be caped throu cocoon and so on and so on but they cant.. period.. no its not open for discussion cuse they cant.. its a fact of reality.. im sorry but if you feal like aruging about this you where wrong.. And no im not saying this to Xaun or any outher poster.. im saying it to whoever thats reading this and gets the erge to respond "omg they so can be caped throu Cocoon" becuse they cant.. plain and simple.. i have given you the facts.. deal whith the fact that its time you change your wieve on how AO works and that its time for you to admit to yourself that you where wrong.. Its ok.. Its human to be wrong.. just alow yourself to face that you where wrong and let it be..
aka.. Facts are facts..


EDIT: The math here can be pritty confusing.. im still editing the numbers back and forth =P But if you got RRFE a AS wount hit trou Cocoon..

I'm pretty sure your FACTS are wrong.

As I understand the sequence, and from what I've observed, the 15K hard cap is applied much later in the sequence than you present. So the 25 bullet FA actually hits for 40K+ gross damage, which is cut in half, which is reduced by cocoon/reflects...THEN the 15K cap is applied, and the very last cap is the 40% one. So the net damage (assume 30% RRFE) could be:

40K (divide by 2) (subtract 10K biococoon) (times 0.7 for RRFE) = 7,000

(then capped at 40% if HP are less than 17,500)

Not hitting for the 15K cap, but not 500 as you claim in your example 1.2

[Rktim]

I'm pretty sure your FACTS are wrong.

As I understand the sequence, and from what I've observed, the 15K hard cap is applied much later in the sequence than you present. So the 25 bullet FA actually hits for 40K+ gross damage, which is cut in half, which is reduced by cocoon/reflects...THEN the 15K cap is applied, and the very last cap is the 40% one. So the net damage (assume 30% RRFE) could be:

40K (divide by 2) (subtract 10K biococoon) (times 0.7 for RRFE) = 7,000

(then capped at 40% if HP are less than 17,500)

Not hitting for the 15K cap, but not 500 as you claim in your example 1.2

EDIT (Im sorry but it seems like your observations where wrong =/)
I wasent wrong after all it seems..
You hit with 25 bullets...
Someone's reflect shield hit you for 25 points of damage.
Someone's damage shield hit you for 48 points of damage.
You hit Enfodudes for 950 points of Full Auto damage.

On a enforcer.. He had slightly lower then RRFE reflects.. Brb going to try to find anouther one to test on..

Update:
You hit with 25 bullets...
Someone's damage shield hit you for 45 points of damage.
You hit Alcoydel for 4426 points of Full Auto damage.
On a engineer that dident have reflects up.. its compeatly possible for a enginer to see this for example if a NT has just nuked him there by removing his reflects for a weary short time period but still enouth to see this.. Or maby even enginer reflect killer thingy works on outher engis.. donno but its possible explinations for what Carbonum and outhers are seeing.. also if you get a burst on you before you will se higher then 5k FA hit you throu cocoon and you might not have time to see/think about the burst that hit first and all you see is 7k FA when you had Cocooon up.. These abnomralitys (omg thats hard to spell O.o) wount occure in clean tests...
When he had RRFE on him i did a 22 Bullet FA and it dident even break cocoon..
(i did just ower 9k)

And before you point out that i shuld have FAd him for 5k after coocon and that thers no way to tell if im right becuse i caped him... if YOU belvie that bullets 22-25.. aka 3.. bullets.. can make 5k diffrence then yer nuts =P (in PvM you can see 3 bullet FAs doing more then 5k yes but pleas remember that this is PvP and that each bullet adds less after the 10th bullet (and 15th and 20th if i aint mistaken.. or maby only 10th or only 10th or 20th.. whatever) point beeing it scales lower so those 3 last bulelts cant have a 5k effect.. not even in PvM =P)
So it defently works exactly as i said..
End of discussion.. again =P

[CarbonumCopy]

Who knows for sure what's going on under the hood in the damage calc? Sometimes I'm not even sure the devs know the whole story. They certainly aren't telling.

But I do know that I'm regularly hit for 40% caps (about 4K) right through 10K cocoon and engineer reflect (27%).