What keepers ACTUALLY need

[McKnuckleSamwich]

1. Condense HM line to 4 perks (remind anyone of acrobat?)

HM line needs to keep the same modifiers, and make the AAD debuff lower check. If it is goign to have an AAD self buff, it would be nice to have 30s minimum. the dot removal and slow hot is a useless turd imo.

2. Replace AoR entirely, condense AoR, give it some DECENT actionable perks opening at a reasonable level AND condense it, combine it with blessing, or just remove it.

Nuff said. Totally useless, and just isn't nearly valuable enough at any point to perk into it.

3. street samurai needs a heavy work over. condense line, combine with reaper, or provide some decent damage perks, AND a stun. the stun needs to be available at any level where a keeper is likely to face a CHing agent/doc/advy.

4. Blessing needs slightly longer duration at lower levels on dev armour, lay on hands needs a very short recharge, considering it is taking the place of every small spammable heal of advy/MA/doc/agent/mongo. Lay on hands needs a 0.5 sec execution and shorter recharge (25 sec maybe), and CT NEEDs to be a bigger heal, with the same recharge.

Blessing is screwed. Keepers cannot evade like other profs, and the cannot heal as effectively either. So blessing needs to be bumped up.

5. REwork dimach. hard, badly. Reduce max recharge to 15 minutes, min recharge to 8 minutes, heal scales according to dimach skill+Body dev.

Thats my list.

[Grind42]

Sounds good, the Dimach recharge might be a little low. especially if reworking the blessing line.

Maybe 30min recharge scaling down to 20min.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Sounds good, the Dimach recharge might be a little low. especially if reworking the blessing line.

Maybe 30min recharge scaling down to 20min.

Imo, 10 minutes is needed. At TL5 if you can't use it once per fight, it's a hassle. At TL7, you have other options, but, at TL5 there are no other options..

Because perks and options for healing open up with more perks, the better perks are locked to TL7.

Compare this to an advy/doc/ma: who have exactly the same stuff at TL5 as TL7, only scaled up. TL5 keeper is at a significant disadvantage due to being solely perk dependant.

Thats the reasoning behind so much of my argument.

[MyGift]

Keepers need complete makeover....Few perk changes wont change anything...Keepers looks like poor version of enf.

[haavarst]

I can`t see any decent fixes to keepers at all... some nerf on our old heals and a nerf to SnD with a crappy improvement to aura of heal? Dont see how thats gonna help us mutch vs professions we cant perk that chop us up inn pices..

Did any of you see anything usefull?

Edit: ah you did lower recharge on the group perkline Reaver.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I can`t see any decent fixes to keepers at all... some nerf on our old heals and a nerf to SnD with a crappy improvement to aura of heal? Dont see how thats gonna help us mutch vs professions we cant perk that chop us up inn pices..

Did any of you see anything usefull?

Edit: ah you did lower recharge on the group perkline Reaver.

I didn't see anything that was going to be helpful (especially at TL5). But, thats why i made this thread.

Guys: please add constructive comments/criticisms as you see fit. I'm trying to sum up some of the main problems that keepers have, and how to fix it.

As i said before, what keepers have to do with JUST perks, all other profs accomplish with nanos.

Therefore, our perks need to be stronger, and the toolset NEEDS to be rounded out at lower levels/TLs. Period.

IMO, most/all of the professional perks /healing perks that keepers get at end game need to be available earlier on, but scale with AR/BD/HP/level/number of perks in the line/etc.

This would round out some of the drastic shortcomings that we suffer at Lower levels, case in point: advy, doctor, agent, enf & others, already have access to some of their most basic and useful perks/nanos by TL5 (notably: acrobat, CH, UBT, mongo, Challenger, hots, AS, concussive shot, and others...) Whereas, keepers don't EVER get these "defining toolsets", Furthermore, the "toolset" that keepers do finally develope is one that is entirely perk dependant, WHICH, by the perking mechanism being linked to Level, is SORELY lacking sub SL levels.

This is why, my and others' arguments hinge almost entirely, on condensing perklines, to open up other perklines for exploration and use.


I've outlined some changes that I think will help us. Please comment to provide a more rounded and complete picture for the devs.

[haavarst]

What TL5 needs is the perks TL7 keepers have today. Whats available for TL7 today is a joke.

[Kinkst44h]

Keepers need complete makeover....Few perk changes wont change anything...Keepers looks like poor version of enf.

Keepers should have simply been a specialization of an enforcer, or an enforcer "build" - they dont need to exist for any other reason.

However, keepers could be saved by the "Heal change" coming up. They dont lack much REALLY other than an ability to stop healers. Everywhere else they are pretty damn solid.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Keepers should have simply been a specialization of an enforcer, or an enforcer "build" - they dont need to exist for any other reason.

However, keepers could be saved by the "Heal change" coming up. They dont lack much REALLY other than an ability to stop healers. Everywhere else they are pretty damn solid.

While your analysis might be applicable at TL7, kink, it isn't relevant at lower TLs, which is unfortunately what the beef is in this thread.

The other beef is the lack of ability for keepers to expand on options, due to such long perk lines for small benefit.

[Kinkst44h]

Fix TL7 so noone will want to play TL5 anymore, and voila we now have no population issue.
But yes, my experience of TL5 keepers is limited, but all perk reliant classes (keeper, shade) cant reasonably expect to be balanced too well at TL5, simply due to missing so much of their toolset by way of having no perk points.

[mr_road]

While your analysis might be applicable at TL7, kink, it isn't relevant at lower TLs, which is unfortunately what the beef is in this thread.

The other beef is the lack of ability for keepers to expand on options, due to such long perk lines for small benefit.

Maybe you should have titled the thread "What tl5 Keepers ACTUALLY need" and/or mentioned it explicitly in your post if you wanted people to stick to tl5 concerns.


As for perk reliant classes suffering in the low levels... maybe make some of their unique toolset perk lines give perk actions very early on (possibly to the extent of a couple perk actions per perk) and then boost their effect with more perks put into the line.

[Kinkst44h]

As for perk reliant classes suffering in the low levels... maybe make some of their unique toolset perk lines give perk actions very early on (possibly to the extent of a couple perk actions per perk) and then boost their effect with more perks put into the line.

I was going to say this, but then the issue comes up that if all the abilities "work" at low perk points, you may see keepers putting 3-4 points in 10 different lines. Keepers armed with 10 different versions of acrobat..

[mr_road]

I was going to say this, but then the issue comes up that if all the abilities "work" at low perk points, you may see keepers putting 3-4 points in 10 different lines. Keepers armed with 10 different versions of acrobat..

they would work but they would be low level.

sure, they'd have 10 different versions of acrobat, but the versions would only give 50 points each.

damage perks would scale with weapon skill and the number of perks in the line.

evades would scale with the number of perks in the line.

keepers/shades wouldn't have to wait till end game to get their full toolset.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

they would work but they would be low level.

sure, they'd have 10 different versions of acrobat, but the versions would only give 50 points each.

damage perks would scale with weapon skill and the number of perks in the line.

evades would scale with the number of perks in the line.

keepers/shades wouldn't have to wait till end game to get their full toolset.

This is one of the suggestions I've been toying with: having MOST of the actions available at TL7 available in the first 3-4 perks in a line, but scaling with either # of perks in the line, or, better with skills.

This really is the best suggestion that there is, and It's THE BEST way to solve the most serious problems associated with shades and keepers sub TL7.

I have no problem with keepers/shades getting a couple more UBER perks for end game tactical combat, but, realistically, we really need to see the toolset bloom much much earlier on. Even TL3-4 should have significantly more options than they currently do. ->>compare the combat abilities of a keeper and a trader/enf/doctor/MP, or any prof other than shade, and you see why suddenly that keepers perk AoR, and their only action is fast attack. fast attack. fast attack. fast attack. ok you get the point.

We definitly need more actions opening at lower levels, which carry through to end game.

GREAT suggestion Mr.ROad

[Kinkst44h]

they would work but they would be low level.
sure, they'd have 10 different versions of acrobat, but the versions would only give 50 points each.
damage perks would scale with weapon skill and the number of perks in the line.
evades would scale with the number of perks in the line.
keepers/shades wouldn't have to wait till end game to get their full toolset.

Except for them to be viable at TL5, theyd be up against **** like:

Concussive Shot
Nanite Drains
Infernal Rage
Acrobat
AS
TMS
Doubles
...etc

"Stuff" at TL5 is quite often used at TL7, or not exactly "Bad" at TL7.

[Heresiarch]

I disagree with the noobish ways of these puny tl5, and I laugh at their incompetence.

Therefore on behalf of all TL7 out there let me tell you what we need:

AoR does'nt heal enough!
Start with 50hp and then scale it with another +50 for every perk point in the line.
If you are confused the look below:

Aura of Revival 1: Health 50 .. 50, every 9 seconds
Aura of Revival 2: Health 100 .. 100, every 9 seconds
Aura of Revival 3: Health 150 .. 150, every 9 seconds
Aura of Revival 4: Health 200 .. 200, every 9 seconds
Aura of Revival 5: Health 250 .. 250, every 8 seconds
Aura of Revival 6: Health 300 .. 300, every 8 seconds
Aura of Revival 7: Health 350 .. 350, every 8 seconds
Aura of Revival 8: Health 400 .. 400, every 7 seconds
Aura of Revival 9: Health 450 .. 450, every 7 seconds
Aura of Revival 10: Health 500 .. 500, every 6 seconds

As none will use it anyway, either if you increase the heal amount or the refresh time, compared to the benefits of Blessing, then I suggest a merge of the two perklines.
To clear up any confusion:

Merge Blessing and Aura of Revival!

And just to bump this ever important issue:

Minimum Dimach time lowered to 10 minutes!

[NoGoal]

Merging AoR and blessing would be way too OP. Blessing alone is already one of the best perk lines.

New AoR perk action looks good but noone will perk that line because keepers are short on perks. Noone would give up on Reaver/HM/BioS/Blessing for it. Especially with the new HM perk action.

[Hacre]

Merging AoR and blessing would be way too OP. Blessing alone is already one of the best perk lines.

Right but currently Blessing has a proposed big fat nerf attached to it. Merging it with AoR would barely nudge the new versions ahead of the current Blessing, which is currently not that fabulous.

With the HP Keepers gained since LE, even with the heal % buff from research, Curing Touch heals for nowhere close the % of HP as it did pre LE, that's also factoring in 40%->30% caps. We also swallowed a nerf to Cocoon during that time if you recall.

Post the currently proposed changes, it will heal for even less, given the top 6k heal that no one will be able to attain as things stand.

[NoGoal]

The values in the PDF are values before the level modifier. Current CT is 3485 with 10 perks but 6900 at 220. Same with LoH. 1110 base but 1656 at 220.

[tweeeek]

The values in the PDF are values before the level modifier. Current CT is 3485 with 10 perks but 6900 at 220. Same with LoH. 1110 base but 1656 at 220.

not to mention AoR has a 20% max hp heal witht he changes, merging them would be mad op.

upping g the tick amount on aor would be helpful though, or adding 1-2 more perks to the line with small effects