Purpose and Function: Damage Professions

[-XeI20-]

And what? Why would mediocore shade should be better than soldier or ma or eng in dd setup? Why? These professions are not tanks, healers, not cc. They are just dd in pvm and they all want to be good at it. But only shade lack some sensible buffs for others. What a pity. Ask for some instead of whining about your poor damage.

Well first off. I would like to be the first to properly rofl at your statement of soldiers not being tanks...Rofl...There, that's done. So why should shades be better dders? Have you not been paying attention? It's because all three of those profs you mentioned have tools which can be tweaked to make up for a lack of damage, or rather, no longer being on the highest end of dealing damage. Shades don't have any real osb's b/c of our rp. Shades are a parasitic organism. We take, and we cause harm in taking. Our nature only further enforces us being true damage dealers. Our very essence, our being, harms others.

Our given tools truly leave no other adaptations for which we can make up for not being extraordinary damage dealers. What you here are asking for is that Shades ask for a completely new toolset. One which benefits team members similarly to how other profs toolsets benefit teams. This is counter to the rp aspect of Shades. Counter to the reason I rolled one, and I'm sure, the reason why many others rolled one.

Shades, Deal, Damage. That is our toolset and why being The Top Damage Dealer should be part of our toolset. We should be the best in the same way docs are the best healers, crats are the best CC users, and enforcers are the best tanks.

[JJiman]

Well first off. I would like to be the first to properly rofl at your statement of soldiers not being tanks...Rofl...There, that's done.

Heheh, yeah, what an uber tanks we are. Could laugh at your face with your statement. The taunt nanos soldier's currently have are laughable. You prolly are just normal forum troll that lurks in the shadows of the posts and strikes in just to cause scream and yell on the threads just because you don't feel that you are uber with your played profession - which is - a sad thing.

For some more amusement of you here's the link to our 'best' taunt nano: http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=229104

Taunts for 4500.. heheh. Oh lord what uber tanking that be. And what the nanos give out about soldier's primary duty here's the another 'taunt' line nano since you obviously haven't bothered to see soldier toolsets:

http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=223221

Amazing 11k detaunt, that be the tanker for you.

So why should shades be better dders? Have you not been paying attention? It's because all three of those profs you mentioned have tools which can be tweaked to make up for a lack of damage, or rather, no longer being on the highest end of dealing damage. Shades don't have any real osb's b/c of our rp. Shades are a parasitic organism. We take, and we cause harm in taking. Our nature only further enforces us being true damage dealers. Our very essence, our being, harms others.

Yeah, parasites, usually leech off others and not kill the host immediately if you go with that definition, so enjoy leeching in teams.

Our given tools truly leave no other adaptations for which we can make up for not being extraordinary damage dealers. What you here are asking for is that Shades ask for a completely new toolset. One which benefits team members similarly to how other profs toolsets benefit teams. This is counter to the rp aspect of Shades. Counter to the reason I rolled one, and I'm sure, the reason why many others rolled one.

Well, I'd like to see the soldiers to be self only buffs except damage and reflect auras, would be very nice that you could play very selfcentered profession that no need to buff others, ie when going to bs have to rrfe/fat/os/pm/etc others for a quite some time at start where you, selfcentered piece of parasite, just go off running, not bothering to give the slowpoke friendly soldier even a speed buff since fixers are a pretty rare sight.

Shades, Deal, Damage. That is our toolset and why being The Top Damage Dealer should be part of our toolset. We should be the best in the same way docs are the best healers, crats are the best CC users, and enforcers are the best tanks.

Yeah, soldiers on the battlefield are just there for playing cards, drinking beer, getting buttwhooped by shopkeepers and have their way with very bad women instead of actually fighting.

Yawn.

Please lock this thread.

- J

[Philty]

We should be the best in the same way docs are the best healers, crats are the best CC users, and enforcers are the best tanks.

You should roleplay less.

Go play mp for a while and then speak about role of profession in AO.

And no soldier is as good tank as advy is a healer. They can tank there and there, but try to go side of s42 with a soldier as a tank and we will see who will laugh.

Anyway I will repeat once more (and for last time as it seems to be waste time to argument with you) that shades have enough dd already to prevail all other professions and its boost would be just ridiculous.

PS. And if you have problems to od crats, try to play this game better. Seriously.

[-XeI20-]

Wow, talk about people noobing it. More insults as to my aptitude as a Shade. lololol. Hey guys look! A soldier who doesn't know you don't need taunt nanos in order to be a great tank. Just to let you know solja noob Shades don't have taunt nanos whatsoever, yet, omg, we tank shiz yo.

I've seen soldiers pull 240k dpm. More then enough dmg to keep agg off a doc. Soldiers can tank beast. DB1 and 2. Xan. OMG the list can go on and on and on. Yet, even sadder about the above responses is that my primary theme here has been about reworking the purposes of profs toolsets to meet the FUNCTION. In other words, you pointed out your toolset was broken. Laik omgawd, you mean your toolset is broken like my Shades toolset? Perhaps both could be fixed so my Shade can have his dmg and your soldier can have working taunts? Work now don't it right? RIGHT?! FFS!!!

[JJiman]

I've seen soldiers pull 240k dpm. More then enough dmg to keep agg off a doc. Soldiers can tank beast. DB1 and 2. Xan.

I'd like to see your soldier have fun time tanking at beast.

No, actually, please come and not get docs just /leave team.

Prolly you gonna say, as your writing above 'just hit AMS and omglolz****zyo tank away!' which ofcourse, would be funny as hell at beast.

But anyway, if you think your shade is uber crappy why not instead try to make some constructive suggestions at the Shades' forum and get them on the wishlist instead of just QQ'ing here how you feel crappy about your profession or skill, or rather lack of it.

Shades are pretty much top DD in the game, if you get OP'd by crat, my suggestion is what was suggested above as well.

Have a nice day.

- J

[keitelo]

And if you have problems to od crats, try to play this game better. Seriously.

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...12&postcount=4

Now get a clue and come back later please...

That being said although i wouldn't mind a little boost for shades DD wise i'd rather get some real pvp love as a non lolmrtrox shade...
Maybe, maybe one day FC will help this prof...i can dream on...

[navycut]

Heheh, yeah, what an uber tanks we are. Could laugh at your face with your statement. The taunt nanos soldier's currently have are laughable.

lol solds aren't good tanks? Are you ebayed or?

Solds can be better tanks than even enfs in MANY situations (not all but a lot) seriously learn to play your sold better.

[-XeI20-]

You should roleplay less.

Um why? In case you didn't know, you're playing a Massively Multiplayer Online ROLE PLAYING GAME. /facepalm

Go play mp for a while and then speak about role of profession in AO.

You mean, Shades aren't the only ones whose toolsets aren't functioning properly? Go figure. Wow. HAD NO IDEA!!

As long as we're on the topic of mp's, how would you like to hear some interesting ideas to help them out as well? How about we give their mez pet noticeable init debuffs! And while we're at it we can give each prof some new uber nanos which have ridiculous nano requirements and nacost. Nanos people will want to cast even more then the new db ones. And so that mp's don't get resigned to 2nd acc buff totem status give them an aura like nano buff which is needed as well as CM in order to cast these new nanos while using nano gear or conc. That way people will be like, hey look an mp, grab him! Oh and a trader grab him I want my hud 3 for a vts!! Laik omg, an IDEA!1

And no soldier is as good tank as advy is a healer. They can tank there and there, but try to go side of s42 with a soldier as a tank and we will see who will laugh.

Wait, so you're basing your argument for soldiers not being good tanks, b/c they can't tank s42 well? OMG ROFL!!!

Anyway I will repeat once more (and for last time as it seems to be waste time to argument with you) that shades have enough dd already to prevail all other professions and its boost would be just ridiculous.

PS. And if you have problems to od crats, try to play this game better. Seriously.

Yes, again, you repeat yourself while not having gained the understanding of why my setup does not push enormous damage, and thus you decide it's not the setup or buffs which determine high dpm but the player. And ofc, merely prevailing after farming ai armor, a 300 vts, acdc, both crit huds, snipers friend, aruls, rk mish +dmg ring, alb ring, etc etc etc, then ofc, then you get to od everyone. Just remember, your down nearly 300 def and 2500 hp! HF docs! At least you know who you'll be healing!

[-XeI20-]

I'd like to see your soldier have fun time tanking at beast.

No, actually, please come and not get docs just /leave team.

Prolly you gonna say, as your writing above 'just hit AMS and omglolz****zyo tank away!' which ofcourse, would be funny as hell at beast.

He had no problems tanking Right Hand...Laik, dood, solja tanked something which helped for team success. Dood is totally a suckzor tank yo. Solja is horrible prof for tanking, obviously.

But anyway, if you think your shade is uber crappy why not instead try to make some constructive suggestions at the Shades' forum and get them on the wishlist instead of just QQ'ing here how you feel crappy about your profession or skill, or rather lack of it.

Shades are pretty much top DD in the game, if you get OP'd by crat, my suggestion is what was suggested above as well.

Have a nice day.

- J

It always brings a smile to my face when people throw insults. Here I am using reason, logic, and rp and what do they do? Do they counter it with reason and logic? No, they don't. It's recess and it's obviously time to bring out the insults. What's next guys? Yo momma jokes?

On a more serious note I particularly enjoy the vagary with which everyone defending crats has used. In no place have they done any testing with a parser and displayed those results. No numbers. They have only come with "lol noob, you suck at your prof, any real Shade pr0 can wtf od every prof at once along with a GM to boot! Reroll!". Is it too much to ask you guys for a bit more substance?

[JJiman]

lol solds aren't good tanks? Are you ebayed or?

Solds can be better tanks than even enfs in MANY situations (not all but a lot) seriously learn to play your sold better.

I'll bite it.

Never said they are bad, but theythat great either. I however know what I can tank and what not - just seems that many forum warriors doesn't know aka see few posts up.

On single target mob, why not, works great, adds, well, could use better taunt nanos for those and thus bunch of mobs that rips the shield either away completely or most of it and it is pretty much our only defense.

Also soldier tanking with multiple adds is pretty much doc aggro magnet with current taunt tools we got - as switching to adds to burst+fa and taunt, but, just sometimes might not provide enough to get them off and might be fatal for the good ol' doc.

And compared to enfos our HP buffer isn't very high either 25k < 70k when the shield drops down or is ripped off thus where enfo has absorbs we got none - and no, I'm not calling that we should get absorbs - in case someone was already poking 'QUOTE' and was ready to type something 'OMGLOLWTFTUESDAYBURGERBBQBATMAN!' or alike.

I'd be happier if FC would actually look into soldiers' taunt line nanos (single target as they are) and could give them some loving in terms of taunt amount (and probably with nano skill requirements too).

In example: you are asked to take aggro (reason z) well, not really you cannot do that 'on the fly'. Not even with some serious damage pumpage at the target and might be too late at that point.

Hope this provides you and fellow 'lolz r u ebayer' caller friends some insight to the current game play as a soldier tank and hopefully answers to your current questions you had.

Have a nice day.

- J

[-XeI20-]

I
I'd be happier if FC would actually look into soldiers' taunt line nanos (single target as they are) and could give them some loving in terms of taunt amount (and probably with nano skill requirements too).

For which I'm all for. In fact, not only am I for it, but this entire thread's theme is dedicated to getting this done. Purpose and Function. When they line up profs have their toolsets working. Not only Shades. If people would stop being caught up with 'oh look at mps being broken' etc etc and think, hey, this is what a shades toolset is. Why shouldn't their toolset work? Purpose and Function. That's all this is.

[Notadoc]

Besides, PvM, who cares who's good at what? The problem is other professions being left behind, not the magic 4 we have currently, Enfs, Docs, Soldiers, Crats (maybe Keepers if talking about 12 man).

I'd rather see the other 10 get a decent boost or be desirable for other reasons. Who has seriously teamed a Trader in PvM lately because they actually needed one as opposed to filling out a spot in the team?

This.

Shades, Deal, Damage. That is our toolset and why being The Top Damage Dealer should be part of our toolset. We should be the best in the same way docs are the best healers, crats are the best CC users, and enforcers are the best tanks.

seems to me like your both asking for the same thing in different ways. Whether or not shade is intended to be top DD sounds like a different question.

A more clearly defined tool set makes more sense, if the shade get's aggro and the tank can't tank doesn't it make sense that both professions should have reliable tools to shift the aggro back to the tank, regardless of which profession is tanking?

[-XeI20-]

seems to me like your both asking for the same thing in different ways. Whether or not shade is intended to be top DD sounds like a different question.

A more clearly defined tool set makes more sense, if the shade get's aggro and the tank can't tank doesn't it make sense that both professions should have reliable tools to shift the aggro back to the tank, regardless of which profession is tanking?

It really is what we both want. Here though I'm being direct in what I wish to happen for the prof I enjoy playing. While thinking in general terms for the overall health of the game is useful, no real progress can be made for a prof without specific information, which would be expressed desires for what a player believes their prof should be given. This thread is about demonstrating that not only is this something many Shades feel is needed, but there is sound reasoning behind the idea as well as rp elements.

I'm all for each prof getting their tools looked at and revisisted. I've given ideas for such within this thread which are not only viable but which benefit all parties involved while increasing some variety and newness to the game. Awesome nanos you don't get to use all the time! Personally I think that would be sweet.

I'm all for the overall health of AO. But AO won't get better until you diagnose the problem and then treat it. This thread proposes a treatment to Shades. Rejecting it just because there are other sicks patients...come on people...Give a Good Reason why the treatment would not help, mkay?

[mr_road]

i'd be happy if damage professions were known for their damage.

and professions (like crats because that seems to be the going example) who have a very useful support toolset could get decent damage if the toon was pushed that way but would still be lower than a 'damage profession'.

it's nice when a team goes... "nice. an uber shade. this raid should go quick."

it's also nice to have a bit of competition for the 'top dd' spot.

the only thing shade's lack is a team type buff... i think if TR buffed the team with a 'perk damage increase' it could make an interesting addition to the team.

[-XeI20-]

So, as I promised earlier, I've run recent parses on some semi high AC mobs and then some high AC mobs. All of them had high to med high hp. Multple perks cycles were used, as you'll see.
First I'll outline the results.

Killing 4 of the dragons dynas (all that were up then, one was from a diff parse I found in my screenshots) near astypalia, which is also located right by Razors Lair, I had the following dpm upon each mob: 272k, 273k, 280k, and 282k Which averages out to 277k.

Killing some high AC mobs near Xarks lair, a dragon, a tiig, and hecks, I achieved the following damages: 252k, 261k, 229k, 247k, and 265k. Which averages out to 251k dpm.

I'll work on finding a crat I trust in decent damage equip which will be willing to help out in completing these tests. Any Shades which want to meet up and do some parses with their various setups are more then welcome to contribute. /tell me.

Pics! 1 one wun 11

[Mereditche]

You shouldn't concentrate on nerfing others. Atm there's 3 professions which are clearly OP in pvm: doc (heals), enfo (huge hp) and crat (init debuffs/boss calms).

Someone said it earlier in ths thread and I'm to tired to look it up, but with those 3 (and often sold for reflects), every raids becomes lol-tastic. You don't need anything else for your team. No matter if fixers have ncu's, traders have drains, engis have crap reflects, mp's have some heal pet, you don't need them as it's beyond easy already.

With the combination of those 3/4 everything becomes so easy, that every other professions only merit to a team becomes DD. So when asking for a DD boost, every profession which has been pushed into the DD role should get one to keep things fair.

Obviously it would be better to divide roles more evenly between professions: 3-4 tanks, 3-4 healers, 3-4 cc, 3-4 dd. But now doc has heals which are 5 times next prof, enfo has health which is 5 times next tank, crats have the only working CC in the new boss-only content.

TO be honnest. I think shades have a lot more to bring to a team than most other professions. They have huge DD and more important can replace an enfo to tank pretty much 80% of everything happening at end-game.

[-XeI20-]

My determination to keep other profs below Shades in dpm, by vaulting us up, has just as much to do with fixing Shades toolset into working order as it does with wanting other profs to have their toolset actually work. Their Real Toolsets. The ones they were designed with. That would make pvm more interesting imo.

I for one won't compromise with a carebear attitude in the interest of being fair in the short-term. I want AO to be as fun as it can be. I believe the way AO can become as fun as possible is if we define profs as they were designed, rather then everyone scrambling for more dpm. Afterall, there's really no point in having other profs if all they do is compete for dmg.

My suggestion would make the competition somewhat moot. Luckily for every prof out there which would lose this competition, they have many tools which can be adapted back into working order. At which point, we'll truly be playing a game with 14 profs, not 4 profs with 10 dders.

I understand the hesitation people would have in agreeing with me. The idea of giving up what's the last refuge of being useful is unsettling to say the least. Yet, the change must start at some place. If anything I hope to give people the realization that they do have toolsets, and when they're fixed they will actually be playing their prof to it's fullest.

The prof I've chosen has it's toolsets focus on dealing damage. I hope everyone else will realize that this thread is not about taking away from you, it's about fixing the broken parts of a Shades toolset. I would hope that the majority of people, if not at first at least by now, will realize that this form of thought towards fixing toolsets, and only fixing them, brings the variety back to AO.

When your tools are once again in demand, you play the game, and your prof. I believe that should be the goal of all players. It's certainly mine.

[JustinSane4]

Considering that right now the non-dd tool sets of 10 of 14 professions are not nearly as in demand as DD is, are you arguing that we should wait until all professions core tool sets, as you define them (that is, not competitive in DD), are made as useful to teams as docs healing, enfs tanking and your proposed Shades way better than anyone else DD? If that were possible it'd be awesome, but I don't see how it could be done. As it stands, docs heal, enfs tank, crats cc, everyone else DDs. You seem to want the current three essential PvM professions to become four, to the detriment of every other prof in the game.

[Hacre]

Considering that right now the non-dd tool sets of 10 of 14 professions are not nearly as in demand as DD is, are you arguing that we should wait until all professions core tool sets, as you define them (that is, not competitive in DD), are made as useful to teams as docs healing, enfs tanking and your proposed Shades way better than anyone else DD? If that were possible it'd be awesome, but I don't see how it could be done. As it stands, docs heal, enfs tank, crats cc, everyone else DDs. You seem to want the current three essential PvM professions to become four, to the detriment of every other prof in the game.

Except, Shades already do more DD than anyone else. How much that margin is, is irrelevant, the margin is there.

Yes, at one point in AO history, I had a Crat set up specifically for DD and yes, it OD'd all but DD set up Engineers, as, if they want to, Engies are the king of the DD when it comes to pet classes. However, when Shade perks were changed, not so long ago, that misnomer went away and good Shades surpassed Crats, every time.

The professions that really suffer when it comes to PvM desirability are MPs, Traders, Fixers and unless there's no Soldiers around (which is rare) Engineers, then to a lesser extent, Adventurers.

Shades: Damage and lots of it.
Soldiers: Reflects, damage, secondary tank.
Keepers: Auras, damage, secondary tank, anti fear when it comes to 12 man.
NTs: Damage and after 215, lots of it.
Docs: Heals.
Crats: Damage, init debuffs on mobs that can't be UBT'd, defensive auras, calms.
Enforcers: Best tank in the game, bar none.
MAs: Damage just behind Shades, crit buffs and evade buffs for everyone else.

Traders: Not needed in -any- end game encounter. Very rare to find a Trader actually geared for damage. Only really useful if your tank is an evade profession (Keeper, MA, Shade) due to -aao on drains, however most bosses have drain resist.
MPs: Not needed in any end game encounter at all, unless you're running a Mordeth raid, lol.
Engineers: Only useful if there's no Soldiers around, unless the Engineer is a known DD setup Engineer.
Fixers: NCU buffs, act as backup if no Keepers are available for 12 man.
Adventurers: Not -bad- DD, but only situationally useful. Can't remember the last time anyone said "omg, we need an Advie".
Agents: The only thing at end game they provide a good backup of, is Fixers for 12man by going FP Fixer and using the fear removal.

I've separated these into two groups. A group that needs to be more desirable and a group that's pretty desirable as is. Note Shades are in the group that has no problems getting teams because of their damage as well as, where LoX is concerned, they want loot that no one else really wants (spirits).

I have never, in my AO life, been in a team that's preferred another profession over a Shade because that profession does more DD. In real world encounters, which is, encounters that are more than just one mob, Shades are plenty desirable and do plenty of damage. Shades are good secondary tanks, Crats are not. While a Crat might come close to a Shade where DPM is concerned, that DPM is spread between the Crat and the Crat pets, which means the Crat is not going to be providing any tanking services, the Shade will, because real players always come higher in the mob hate list than NPCs (pets).

All things which the OP chooses to ignore when it comes to demanding that Shades do more DD. I really don't care if Shades get a PvM DD boost or not, they're -the- DD prof, so whatever. But the reasoning being put forward, is flawed, because you have to take game mechanics into account as well. No Crat is going to pull aggro away from a Shade, ever, unless the Shade is terrible.

[-XeI20-]

I do not feel Shades should be the first to have their toolset updated so we become the best damage dealers. I feel it would be best if the less desireables got their toolsets updated first(or ideally, all at once or within group updates). I believe that it is more then apparent that is my desire due to the suggestion's I've already placed forth within this thread, and on occasions others, which move towards that end. However, none of this changes that a Shades toolset is to deal damage, and that this toolsets focus and specialization is not fully functional due to the capabilities of other profs.

By all means campaign within this forum to have your toolset updated during this rebalancing. Give ideas and input as to how you feel your profs toolset would best be updated. It's what I'm doing and I believe everyone else should as well.