Please Funcom, stop crippling agents endgame-perks

[Klodovik]

Because 10k = 10k = 10k = 10k, no matter how you slice it.

What is that 10k you are talking about?

[Ebondevil]

It does, but what it in reality is, is a significant damage nerf thats pretty much unexplainable.

The Shot has been stealthfriendly with 6500-8000 originally.
Now, it is nothing less off fuzz/nanofeast with a debuff casters don't feel too much.

And you're still blithely ignoring the fact that The Shot's damage has actually been improved due to the recharge has been halved.

The Shot before changes: 6500-8000 Damage every 2 minutes, 3250-4000 Damage per Minute.
The Shot after changes: 7328-8828 Damage every 2 minutes, 3664-4414 Damage per Minute.

We loose a TON of pvm-damage by using the gear needed for 3000 AS-skill, as crit/add damage compliments us.

I based the 1% damage loss on 2000 Aimed shot skill which doesn't take any sacrifices, care to explain then exactly how the changes are costing us a HUGE amount of damage, when they amount to less than 1% of our Damage output per minute?

Aimed Shot, which will be reusable in pvm, is not only used by agents either.

The 3 second execution one we don't have enough details on, and I left Aimed Shot out of the calculations for the damage loss, the other version of Aimed shot though has a good chance of being Agent only.

{edited by Anarrina: removed}

I used the numbers in the documentation, anyway:

I wasn't referring to the numbers in the documentation, I was referring to the current damage output Death strike:

You listed Death Strike as dealing: Projectile -8776 .. -18298
When Auno lists Death strike as dealing: Projectile -6619 .. -12293
A 2k-6k difference.

You artificially increased the current damage which made the Perk changes look worse than they are. The old figures weren't in the Perk documentation so I don't see how you got them from there. I trusted you to be impartial and to give accurate information, as such I didn't check the data as thoroughly as I should have and based my calculations on the fake data you provided, that's how I achieved the 2% figure.

Checking in more depth provided the correct figures, which then lowered the damage loss to less than 1%.

Quote them in reverse order if you like.

1. The damage will still be spiky in pvp.

2. Just because everyone shouldn't be able to alpha like agent doesn't mean our traditional way of dealing damage should be changed.

1. The damage will not be just as spiky, low health professions will most likely have evades and have a chance of avoiding the damage, and I believe the perks will be much less likely to cap on higher HP professions.

2. There's no reason why Agents should keep the Alpha Power while everyone else looses it, that's not balance.

And finally let's not forget that all the perks will be sharing the same damage type as the weapon so they'll rip through Absorbs in no time flat, even more so with the speed increase and number of Perks Agents have, yet another reason why it is reasonable for the damage to be lowered.

I'm not an advocate of damage nerfing, I'm an advocate of balance, which is why I don't support your lies or your misconception that it's a huge damage nerf, when really it's not.

[Cyberleet]

And you're still blithely ignoring the fact that The Shot's damage has actually been improved due to the recharge has been halved.

No, I'm not. And the damage-output on The Shot are being reduced aswell, it's how it is.

I said that this is not a damageboost, but damage moved around twice.

Incase you forgot:
I am against the crippling of agent endgame perks, and pro-repair.

You listed Death Strike as dealing: Projectile -8776 .. -18298
When Auno lists Death strike as dealing: Projectile -6619 .. -12293
A 2k-6k difference.

Yeah, guess I lied and tried to bring people behind the light...

http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=225845

You artificially increased the current damage which made the Perk changes look worse than they are. The old figures weren't in the Perk documentation so I don't see how you got them from there. I trusted you to be impartial and to give accurate information, as such I didn't check the data as thoroughly as I should have and based my calculations on the fake data you provided, that's how I achieved the 2% figure.

Knock it off, the auno-link is there for all to see.

Projectile -8776 .. -18298

2. There's no reason why Agents should keep the Alpha Power while everyone else looses it, that's not balance.

No, it doesn't exclude balance and there is this thing called diversity and classes.

As a fact we actually get our perk-alpha power inrceased due to the execution-changes.
Having the damage untouched won't change that.

So if that's really you concern...

yet another reason why it is reasonable for the damage to be lowered.

There is absolutely nothing reasonable with lowering the damage whatsoever, at all.

This damage is reduced to 30% in pvp and I can't see how it unbalances pvm

[Marinegent]

There is absolutely nothing reasonable with lowering the damage whatsoever, at all.

This damage is reduced to 30% in pvp and I can't see how it unbalances pvm

On high HP professions this perk may not be a 30% cap, and that MAY BE INTENDED. Hence the nerf..

[Cyberleet]

It doesn't matter what attack caps, wether it's a perk, fa, as or sa. Same effect, it hurts.

They would probably be more intrested in the recharge of these attacks.

1. The damage will not be just as spiky, low health professions will most likely have evades and have a chance of avoiding the damage,

Well duh, if the perk doesn't execute then the damage from this perk won't be spiky.

The pvp damage will still be high or cap from this perk.

Also, there is no BS or group-pvp encounter in AO that is only for level 220 pvp-geeks (no pun intended).

[Ebondevil]

Yeah, guess I lied and tried to bring people behind the light...

http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=225845

Knock it off, the auno-link is there for all to see.

Projectile -8776 .. -18298

Helps if you get the right one, try:
http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=225840
or
http://aodb.us/index.php?aoid=225840
or
http://ao.tcdev.de/showitem.aspx?AOID=225840

In all cases going through the perk listings:
http://auno.org/ao/perk.php?saveid=69021
or
http://aodb.us/index.php?pg=perks&pid=5
or
http://ao.tcdev.de/perkconfig.aspx?P...s=180&180-10=1

link to those I listed above and in all cases the damage is: Projectile -6619 .. -12293

Interestingly, if you click on the Black Ops 9 link in yours, then click on the Death Strike link therein, guess what, it leads to the correct damage figures as well, the one's I posted.

The only way to find the one you linked to is to search for the perk and then pick the one with the best damage on it, not the one anything else actually links to, I wonder which is more reliable...

This damage is reduced to 30% in pvp and I can't see how it unbalances pvm.

Damage is halved in PvP and even after that the high damage perks currently will cap on low HP profs, and have a chance on high HP profs, the chances of them hitting the PvP caps after the changes are reduced which is perfectly reasonable when the average execution speed is being more than doubled, especially with the Shot, which is getting a damage boost, though it's spike damage is severely cut, because it's getting the recharge cut in half.

Which leads me to believe this thread is really about you being upset that these perks aren't going to be capping on everyone they land on in PvP. Which then brings us back to the Alpha potential of everyone being reduced, which is probably why the damage was reduced and is a good reason for it to be reduced.

You still haven't explained though how less than a 1% damage loss is Huge?

[Cyberleet]

I give up, but: the entry is not incorrect.

Which leads me to believe this thread is really about you being upset that these perks aren't going to be capping on everyone they land on in PvP.

Pretty conspirathoric, I'm discussing pvm as this indeed will do high damage in pvp anyway.

Lets try stay on topic.

And a loud no to the crippling of agent endgame perks.

[Chereee]

Yeah!

No crippling of agent endgame parks.

I call the teeter-totter!

Past experience, [pvm] used assassinate solo or on bosses. When the bug of xferring perks to other targets worked, I'd use that in pande for deathstrike as well. It was pretty reliable and fun. [pvp] I could probably count on one hand how many times I've used it. Useless.

Future, [pvm] not worried about damage nerf cause it can then be used in hopefully any 220 encounter, which is an improvement from using it almost never. [pvp] It's nice that you can land it easier, but I'm just curious what the agent alpha will be like. There's not much time after a stun to land perks. I felt we lacked some damage to pull off a traditional rifle only alpha on a high hp doc. I don't know how assassinate and deathstrike will be useful damage-spike-alpha wise. If there's too much time between perks, heals and defenses are triggered and then an extra few k damage won't make much of a diff.

edit: Same arguments over and over. This thread is a dog chasing its own tail.

[Klodovik]

Pretty conspirathoric, I'm discussing pvm as this indeed will do high damage in pvp anyway.

Lets try stay on topic.

And a loud no to the crippling of agent endgame perks.

OK, so...

How can removal of "Special requires target to be below 15% and stunned" and reworking it to require only to be below 50%, without the need for stun, while almost tripling the execution speed, be considered as crippling?

Not to mention introduction of reusable AS that itself alone compensates more then enough for this laughable "loss" of damage.

[Louderer789]

my Agent while SKing,

I'll believe it when I see it!

Only agents could make a whine thread in which 6k-13k and 5k-11k perks are denounced as crippled. ;p

[Cyberleet]

How can removal of "Special requires target to be below 15% and stunned" and reworking it to require only to be below 50%, without the need for stun, while almost tripling the execution speed, be considered as crippling?

This is considered as a fix/repair to Assassinate/Death Strike, TS is a diferent story, and SS...meh.

Reducing damage-output on our endgame perks is what I'm against.

Not to mention introduction of reusable AS

Almost unrelated to the topic, and a generic change. ^_^

[XenonDe]

I don't really get what your agenda is. It's not about pvp but pvm so:

- Do you want to prevent the drop of 1-2% dpm?
- Do you want the perks to keep the higher damage with higher execution/recharge time?
- Do you want the balance patch to improve agents damage?
- Do you want them to just stay as they are?

Not meant as offense but this seems like a roundabout aproach.

[Apothis1]

We loose a TON of pvm-damage by using the gear needed for 3000 AS-skill, as crit/add damage compliments us.


I have sacrificed nothing to get 3k AS skill lol, endgame 220 is easy as pie :P

[Cyberleet]

How did you get 3000 Aimed Shot skill easy? Do you have screenshot of skill-window?

And if you got, I think you might use "pvp-gear".

I don't really get what your agenda is. It's not about pvp but pvm so:

- Do you want to prevent the drop of 1-2% dpm?
- Do you want the perks to keep the higher damage with higher execution/recharge time?
- Do you want the balance patch to improve agents damage?
- Do you want them to just stay as they are?

Not meant as offense but this seems like a roundabout aproach.

I'm fiercly against what I call "the crippling of agent endgame perks".

We wanted these perks to be repaired for the damage-output, so that should stay untouched. Agents pvm-damage is lacking a lot, and I don't play the class as a doctor so much in pvm, and in this sense I think the balancing should make it a bit more fair to play the class for what it is.

I can't see how shade, evadeclass, should outdamage agent so much, unless docmode is on.

And I am also concerned with having agent-design remain, we always have done high single-attack damage.

So, now you know a little where I am coming from

[XenonDe]

Ah, I see.

I do think Agents could well do with more damage for pvm, so that I'll agree on. But all in all for pvm I would have thought these would be a benefit. From what I understand there may be a loss of 1-2% dpm in optimal situations, but at the same time the perks are more useable in non-perfect situations. Correct me if I am wrong there.

So the issue isn't so much with the perk actions but with lack of tools for dpm. Not that Agents haven't asked for that before, but wouldn't it be better to keep lobbying for tools to support that? Easier casting of Waves, a non-dmg-nerfed Rifle, or more infos regarding the reuseable AS? I'm sure you could think of a better list.

[saryth]

It seems that the primary concern is that for a "fix" to the agent end-game perks, this seems more like a "balance" (trading damage for easier application) rather than an outright repair (simply changing requirements to use without touching anything else).

The statement above has no real purpose other than to give a clear reason as to why the thread exists. Mainly: If all the problems with the profession are addressed in the same way (give/take) rather than fix the broken things outright, the -1% dpm will become -10% as each individual fix comes with a dd nerf.

I in no way support this as I'm all for using the perks more often, but understanding the post may help prevent the knee-jerk reaction of "1% nerf is nothing compared to better usage, if agents are this greedy, maybe they should get nothing," Bottom line is that Lletah isn't trying to be greedy/asking for the world, just asking "why nerf the dpm by 1% if it's a fix", particularly when most people seem to agree that it's an insignificant amount either way. And if it's a rebalance instead of a fix...well again, that's the real point of contention, not the damage specifically.

Not to quell debate or anything, as that's all healthy. Just hoping to clarify the actual argument.

[Kinkstaah]

This is considered as a fix/repair to Assassinate/Death Strike, TS is a diferent story, and SS...meh.

Reducing damage-output on our endgame perks is what I'm against

Making them better is making them better.
It IS that simple.

Would you approve of CH healing for 12k if it suddently had a 18s recharge? No. How about AS doing 15K PVM damage, but having a 3 minute cycle? No.

Same stuff here.

[Ebondevil]

It seems that the primary concern is that for a "fix" to the agent end-game perks, this seems more like a "balance" (trading damage for easier application) rather than an outright repair (simply changing requirements to use without touching anything else).

The statement above has no real purpose other than to give a clear reason as to why the thread exists. Mainly: If all the problems with the profession are addressed in the same way (give/take) rather than fix the broken things outright, the -1% dpm will become -10% as each individual fix comes with a dd nerf.

I in no way support this as I'm all for using the perks more often, but understanding the post may help prevent the knee-jerk reaction of "1% nerf is nothing compared to better usage, if agents are this greedy, maybe they should get nothing," Bottom line is that Lletah isn't trying to be greedy/asking for the world, just asking "why nerf the dpm by 1% if it's a fix", particularly when most people seem to agree that it's an insignificant amount either way. And if it's a rebalance instead of a fix...well again, that's the real point of contention, not the damage specifically.

Not to quell debate or anything, as that's all healthy. Just hoping to clarify the actual argument.

Lletah's arguing that the perks have been 'fixed' most of the rest of us realise the perks have been vastly upgraded not just fixed and as a result a small amount of damage has been removed from them to help balance the improvements.

[tweeeek]

Making them better is making them better.
It IS that simple.

Would you approve of CH healing for 12k if it suddently had a 18s recharge? No. How about AS doing 15K PVM damage, but having a 3 minute cycle? No.

Same stuff here.

you might as well be arguing to a brick wall

[Cyberleet]

Lletah's arguing that the perks have been 'fixed' most of the rest of us realise the perks have been vastly upgraded not just fixed and as a result a small amount of damage has been removed from them to help balance the improvements.

There is no real balance gain in crippling these perks for damage.

Statistcily, many attacks and specials do more damage on a much faster recycle, so... "balance".

You're making a big fuzz about nothing.