Endgame fixers.

[Wrangeline]

If you think fixers have to much defense so they have little chance of geting more offense. Youre wrong. lots of room for improvement to fixers.

Shades and Enfs have alot better defense. so fix offense could be increased with 50% and still wont be close to those to those insanly OP profs.

While I wont argue for or against the points you just presented, I will once again say that this is not about prof vs prof balance. This is more about a fixers internal balance, as I explained in the recent long post. The defense I'm referring to is the fixers defensive rating (evades+aad), not the fixers overall defense. As I already said, this has nothing to do with fixer being OP or not. It has only to do with fixer being, in my mind, badly designed atm. Any further details on that is in the last long post that you may or may not have read.

I'm doing my best to steer this game away from rock paper scissor balancing and you saying that you think some professions are more powerful than fixers doesn't actually have anything to do with my topic here. If you feel enfs are badly designed in some way or another then that's fine but if that's true than that just means you have tried to present a wrong to counter the wrong I have tried to present here. As we all know, two wrongs does not make a right.

[Blackcradle]

If you think fixers have to much defense so they have little chance of geting more offense. Youre wrong. lots of room for improvement to fixers.

Shades and Enfs have alot better defense. so fix offense could be increased with 50% and still wont be close to those to those insanly OP profs.

Not to derail this thread (which I don't have an opinion on either way) even further but I can't tell if this is a joke or not. How can you possibly compare a Fixer or Enfs defense to a shade? And then go even further to say that it's not only OP but insanely OP? Do you have any clue about Shades? Sure in PvM Shades defenses are solid if not great. But given the discussion was clearly about PvP, you're clearly clueless about Shades defense, or lackthereof. The fact that people are including Shades perk-drains into the whole defense arguement/equation is even more ridiculous.

[DrLithvium]

Not to derail this thread (which I don't have an opinion on either way) even further but I can't tell if this is a joke or not. How can you possibly compare a Fixer or Enfs defense to a shade? And then go even further to say that it's not only OP but insanely OP? Do you have any clue about Shades? Sure in PvM Shades defenses are solid if not great. But given the discussion was clearly about PvP, you're clearly clueless about Shades defense, or lackthereof. The fact that people are including Shades perk-drains into the whole defense arguement/equation is even more ridiculous.

Youre not 220 yet. so. And chainstunning people a large portion of the fight is in my world and everyone elses also considered defense. Its is allready stated that shades is one of the best evaders.

Everything that a profession can do should be included in the defense debate. Or are you one of those that sees a doc heal and thinks omg he´s so insanly op? please...

[DrLithvium]

While I wont argue for or against the points you just presented, I will once again say that this is not about prof vs prof balance. This is more about a fixers internal balance, as I explained in the recent long post. The defense I'm referring to is the fixers defensive rating (evades+aad), not the fixers overall defense. As I already said, this has nothing to do with fixer being OP or not. It has only to do with fixer being, in my mind, badly designed atm. Any further details on that is in the last long post that you may or may not have read.

I'm doing my best to steer this game away from rock paper scissor balancing and you saying that you think some professions are more powerful than fixers doesn't actually have anything to do with my topic here. If you feel enfs are badly designed in some way or another then that's fine but if that's true than that just means you have tried to present a wrong to counter the wrong I have tried to present here. As we all know, two wrongs does not make a right.

Well funcom doesnt want to nerf anyone as you may have noticed. So to counter something wrong and op is to give someone else something that is even more wrong and even more op.

and on it goes...

[Blackcradle]

Youre not 220 yet. so. And chainstunning people a large portion of the fight is in my world and everyone elses also considered defense. Its is allready stated that shades is one of the best evaders.

Everything that a profession can do should be included in the defense debate. Or are you one of those that sees a doc heal and thinks omg he´s so insanly op? please...

Who said I was talking about my shade? I don't PvP on my Shade (besides to get 300 gloves/viper/research huds etc). My shade is 218 and 100% PvM, why would I? Are you claiming since I do not PvP on mine and it is not 220 that I don't know what they're capable or not capable of, because in that case... where is yours? Chainstunning? Lol. Get a clue. Shades have a stun proc with a 15% chance (which has high reqs and most don't bother to cast and use the lower one 14%) to land, and 1 stun perk. If you get chainstunned by shades often then you must be just extremely unlucky. This goes without saying that to stun opponents shades actually have to perk or hit them, which doesn't happen on any evaders or without MR, which contrary to popular belief not every shade has, nor should it count toward the offense of any one profession as a whole. Can shades get nice evades sure? Do they have any real reliable method of healing? No. Everything that a profession can do is totally contrived. Can a shade gain a large amount of AR by drains? Sure... if they can perk said person, assuming they are not rooted/nuked/snared/kited etc etc etc in the process. And if you don't realize this having not played a shade you are hopeless. Although given that I see you play two docs, I'm not suprised you're complaining the way you are. I guess it sucks to actually be at risk to die 1v1 for once when an occasional shade actually PvPs...

[Wrangeline]

Well funcom doesnt want to nerf anyone as you may have noticed. So to counter something wrong and op is to give someone else something that is even more wrong and even more op.

and on it goes...

I don't really know how to respond to this because it doesn't really make any sense to me.

Heals are apparently getting nerfed. Nanocost/nanoregen is apparently getting nerfed. Aimed shot is getting nerfed. GTH and BR are getting nerfed. Coon is getting nerfed indirectly because all perks will now do same damage as the weapon wielded. Duration on debuffs are getting nerfed. Reflects is getting nerfed (capped) And so on and so on.

If you truly believe that all the huge changes FC is working on wont nerf anyone in any way, then I think you have somewhat missed the point of this whole thing. These balance patches we're about to get is mostly about toning stuff down because there's too much of everything flying around atm. This happened because FC kept adding stuff over the years and eventually most things ended up a bit overboard. My argument here is that fixer defensive rating is one of those things.

And for the third or fourth time, this is not about fixers being OP or needing a nerf. I don't consider fixers nerfed at all if FC lowers their defensive rating but maintain their balance relative to other professions by bolstering other areas of their toolset so that their relative power stays the same.

Atm, fixers (like many other professions that also needs to be balanced propperly) are virtually impossible to damage for some, ok for some to fight against and easy for some to fight against. Over all they are "balanced". This is however a rock paper scissor balance system that I dislike. I simply want fixers to be a littlebit more manageable for those that virtually can't damage them atm and I want fixers to have a slightly better chance against those that have an easy time vs them atm.

So instead of balance being one extreme to the other vs various professions, I want to tone those extremes down a bit. If this is done on both sides of the coin, the fixer will stay exactly where it is in relative power.

This can only be done if lowering fixers defensive rating is one of the actions taken by FC. Fixers current defensive rating does nothing but promote rock paper scissor balancing and so I personally want it changed.

PS: Please stop the fixer vs shade debate. It's off topic.

[Ashes2Ashes]

Fixers are fine imo when talking about offense / defense. The only thing fixers need is a boost to thier support toolset. When was the last time you heard someone say: Fixers are OP, they pox everyone, ect... The answer is that you really don't. they are neither awesome, or special, they are just middle of the road.

With balancing changes otw, you will no longer have AS + FA comming from fixers. So right there they are loosing quite a bit of punch. But thats ok, it's good to see less specials flying around.

AAD will no longer be counted with NR based perk checks... True that this effects everyone, but now all of a sudden you will be seeing all those NR checking perks landing on fixers, that you couldnt land before.




Docs, MP's, Crats, NT's are recieving new and better nukes. This is a good thng for those professions. These tools are there to deal with evaders, you punch through thier defenses with your nukes + nr checking perks.

Fixers unlike true healing professions, do not have "On Demand" healing abilities. Thier hots don't heal for much. If you were to scale back Fixer defenses so that regulars, and specials land easier on Fixers then what happens next? Do they then need to scale hot's even higher than before?

Its like robbing Peter, to pay Paul. You take from one area, only to find you need to raise another area of the toolset. Actually, to think about it. Fixers should have thier Hots raised anyways, without thier Def being touched. It's a pita to solo on a fixer in pvm. Maybe larger hots would help some there.




Going with a Similar evade profession, lets take Adv... (I don't even want to compare, but just to illustrate healing)

Beauty of Life x2 = 4,704 - 7,056 in 10s
(Thats not even counting in heal eff, insta heal, perk heals, coon, ect...)

Vs.

Greater Preservation Matrix + Superior Insurance Hack = 1,430 - 1810 in 10s
(Used 12khp to figure the ammount of %based long hot would heal)
(Let alone the nano skill req on those HoT's are rediculous)


Maybe in the rebalancing they should Triple the ammount of healing on those Hots = 4,290 - 5430 in 10s... Even then it's still less than what BoL heals in 10s!! lol If anything, this thread is just showing how much love would be needed to raise fixers up to the levels some other professions are currently enjoying in game...


Thats some craptacular healing to be sure, right up there with MA's, whom imo need better healing as well. Hell, even a TL 4 Trader heals more than an end game 220 Fixer in 10s Improved Health Plunder x2 = 1,980 in 10s and, to add insult to injury, it even does damage... But you seem fit to want to reduce fixers Def to improve other areas? Why does anything have to be reduced for fixers? Why not keep it the way it is, and improve other parts of thier toolsets.


Using the above healing info.. Just how much are the new nukes / nr checking perks going to be able to do every 10s? 5x? 10x that of what the fixers hot's are able to heal? I'm sure you can see where I am going with this right?

Yet now you wanna reduce fixers defense even more, and make them more open to regulars + special?

Wrangeline, I really think your barking up the wrong tree here. This profession is fine, and maybe just a little underpowered, and could use some boosting, rather than taking away some of thier much needed defense. With the rebalancing changes, fixers are going to be worse for ware.

[Sonikeep]

Greater Preservation Matrix + Superior Insurance Hack = 1,430 - 1810 in 10s
completely wrong

Greater Preservation Matrix will have 2 ticks per 10 sec
Superior Insurance Hack will have 3 ticks per 10 sec

so Greater Preservation Matrix*2 + Superior Insurance Hack*3 = 2505 - 3075 in 10s

so with 2 more procs + healdelta fixers will have like 4k-4.5k heal in 10 sec, thats enough to outheal 11sec AS :S

l2count

So fixers only weak point is Nukes and what about another 12 profs?

[Ashes2Ashes]

Heh, true in one way, but by the way your saying it, over the course of 1 min...

Greater Preservation Matrix: will tic 12 times per minute, when it will only tic 8 times.
Superior Insurance Hack: will tic 18 times, when it will only tic 13 times.

Procs are unrealiable, your not always going to have those running.. and HD? everyone has that, if it was fixer exclusive you would have something...

So over the course of 1 min..

Greater Preservation Matrix: = 5760
Superior Insurance Hack = 4615-7085
Total of 10,375-12,845 per min...

Which is a far cry from 4-4.5k every 10s

This is like the equivelant of 1 cheal split between 1mins timeframe

[Artyomis]

This is why fixers still use low-hp setup to stay alive for long against AS users.
Unfortunately, sometimes we have tons of regulars landed on us even while having evade perks up and running (for example, i've been fighting 1 vs 1 against engi with around 2.9k AR using pistols - and engi landed around 25% of all regulars while in fight, thats oncluding evades up period).
So, basically, ideal situation is to stay low hp and hope we won't get anything except AS, which isnt really hard to outheal while having 8k hp and using both hots, healdelta, first aid stims, battle kits and maybe procs if they start in time.

But, regarding evades. You guys overrate evadive power of the fixer greatly. In 1 vs 1 situation its really hard to kill fixer, but not because fixer outlives everything, but because fixer can easily escape, if needed.
But, when we're talking about mass PvP situation - fixers are one of the weakest professions because of no mass pvp survival tool at all (no blockers, no coon, no high reflects, no absorbs of any kind and so on).

Besides, there are several perks with ultralow def checks, that use to land even through evades. Plus, there are some non-MR professions that can perk endgame fixers with few perks (for example - predrained shades can).

What about thread owner - honestly, traders can perform really nicely against fixers in a situation where both aware of each other. I've had lotsa problems with traders in evadive setups that start with AAO drain, which makes me impossible to perk traders at all, as far as remove that drain. And then, it's only about technique. And Blindside got nothing to do here most likely, because it barely lands, got pretty long execution time cause of cap, and low duration on effect.

Fixer PvP is mostly about skills and awareness, and not about evades as a whole.

[Humchum]

there are some non-MR professions that can perk endgame fixers with few perks (for example - predrained shades can).

That's a big phat lie straight out of the blue...

even pre-drained, which happens once in a blue moon,(shade don't have loltrader drains), i seriously doubt that a shade can get enough AR to perk a fixer even without dof up...
thier static def rating is more than enough.

In fact fixer is the only evade prof i see people running away from or don't care about because there is nothing they can do to touch them.I mean fixers with good gear.

Mostly only NTs can kill them with ease.

[Sonikeep]

Heh, true in one way, but by the way your saying it, over the course of 1 min...

Greater Preservation Matrix: will tic 12 times per minute, when it will only tic 8 times.
Superior Insurance Hack: will tic 18 times, when it will only tic 13 times.

Procs are unrealiable, your not always going to have those running.. and HD? everyone has that, if it was fixer exclusive you would have something...

So over the course of 1 min..

Greater Preservation Matrix: = 5760
Superior Insurance Hack = 4615-7085
Total of 10,375-12,845 per min...

Which is a far cry from 4-4.5k every 10s

This is like the equivelant of 1 cheal split between 1mins timeframe

l2read? add 2 proc hots and healdelta here

[bitnykk]

i confirm that hots are only of use for lowest possible HP fixers, especially on fixed amount hots, but somehow even with percent amount hots (i won't enter details, you can find calculation posts around here). anyway fixer self-healing amount is far from great, not even worth comparison w adv/doc/agt/ma and even med-hp br keep/enf/eng. i don't know about trad and TR shades. i hope still better than mp pet, and for sure over sold/nt healdelta

Mostly only NTs can kill them with ease.

not only. i can assure you, fixer are :
easy to good nt, enf, ma, eng, doc, adv
doable for good trad, agt, crat, keep, sold, shad
hard to good mp & fix, and gimps ofc

[iolanda]

Youre not 220 yet. so. And chainstunning people a large portion of the fight is in my world and everyone elses also considered defense. Its is allready stated that shades is one of the best evaders.

Everything that a profession can do should be included in the defense debate. Or are you one of those that sees a doc heal and thinks omg he´s so insanly op? please...

Me - 220/30 shade / full alpha
220/30 fixer / full alpha



A shades def cant even be compared to a fixers first of all because shades have to pick betwen offense and deffense . Now adding up numbers in a full def setup shade with a "decent"Ar ( 2800-2950) will be at 3800 evade cl / 3400-3500 dodge thas not counting any perks , compare that with a fixer now 4350 dodge / 4150 evade and 3150 Ar .

Also chain stun where?! where?! its only 15% and we dont have any multiplier hits like crats used to with AS or Burst where the chance of inflicting stun is actualy big .


Please roll a shade or a fixer make it endgame then compare or youd just make a fool out of yourself .




And yes it is possible as a shade if you predrain to perk a fixer , but youd have to sacrifice so much def that infact if the fixer turns around and debuffs you he can perk you threw dof .

[Ashes2Ashes]

l2read? add 2 proc hots and healdelta here

Ah ya, I forgot, those procs are up 24/7... And... Fixers always run both hot procs, riiiight

Lets drop the hypothetical they are always up an running, therefore fixers have good healing, can outheal any damage done to them crap... Besides fixers usually run only 1 hot + 1 evade debuff proc -170.

So at best, a fixer.. if that hot proc is up, is going to get another 362-370 extra heal every 10s.... Not quite alot of healing there Backyard Bandages

and this Luck's Calamity would be the other proc they would have up. Not another hot proc... not saying you wont find that one person who does.

Try better next time

[erozc]

Advie nano heals are shut down when NSD'd/ENSD'd/GTH'd, can be forced to use lower when completely drained, and are tampered with by UBT, procs and the unremovable crat init debuffs. Not to mention you might actually run out of nano in most setups.

Fixer hots aren't affected by any of these immediately.

You're comparing apples to oranges when calculating BoL and HoT efficiency. Anyway, the advy can have a fixer HoT running too - on the other hand, someone may be healing the fixer... Besides you're not including the instant morph heal for the advy.

The argument is moot.

[Yama]

About heals....when comes to shade.

Shade can heal themselves a bit with SHD (with those insane req you usually must have end game spirits) BUT only while fighting. So we need target.
Also we have perk line for a small healing but also we need target.
And we need to land complete line (so target cannot run away) because good heals are at end of perk line.

if you cannot land perks(resisted or perk line interrupted) ..there will be none healing. And because only end game shades can wear combined alpha spirits shade have to choose AAO or AAD or nanoskills. While other profs have symbs and tokenboard and nanos....we have only perks (which have to land first).

And again with AAO we can maybe perk (but we have to perk whole line to do something) not just throwing 1 special in 1-2sec....perking hwole line takes some time and usualy target will run away.

Comparing shades DD with fixer is clueless without mentioning time needed to make this damage. Same for evades....we have to drain something to get more evades...it means perks whole line..which also need some time.

And not mentioning roots/snares...

This game is imbalanced. And if you want play something in this game..you usually have to roll current FC lovechild (OP prof).

But everybody hail new daily missions...which are most important nowdays....

[Hacre]

People also seem to be forgetting that a Fixer HoT heals immediately when the HoT is cast.

[Emmaheart]

endgame fixers are as good as anything else endgame in bs :P

You should play something endgame in bs before commenting on this thread in a negative way

[Cryfreman]

Without bothering to add it up that pretty much puts fixers at mp level of healing? They seem to do well v my AS at the moment thats for sure.