Sneak Attack

[EmSeeBee]

Please make Sneak Attack's recharge scale with your skill level like AS, FA and just about every other special does. I've never really understood why people can AS every 11-20 seconds but meleers have to wait 40 seconds for SA no matter what lvl they are. Melee perks already have a higher def check now in most cases than Ranged perks, and it's pretty ridiculous that their specials have about 1/4 to 1/2 the recharge time as well.

[Provision]

I second this idea. So many speak of Melee alphas. Well, SA is the only thing we have garenteed to land on say.. fixers? And in my opinion, if someone is stupid enough to stay in range of melee they deserve to die quick.

I'd say it's most frustrating knowing you have 2900-3200 evade/duck/dodge and seeing AS being the only thing landing on my shade. So why the hell not even out the play field?

[Mereditche]

I'd say it's most frustrating knowing you have 2900-3200 evade/duck/dodge and seeing AS being the only thing landing on my shade. So why the hell not even out the play field?

YOu speak truth, evades are clearly OP. Time to even the playfield and nerf them a bit

[Ferlorn]

I think it would be better to wait and see what they do with AS before we start asking for a SA revamp.

And if it still turns out to be a problem, work directly on the real problem, of ages old, evades.

[Provision]

Well, from a shade stand point.. it's not like you can SA/Brawl/Dimach ..... dimach maxed and a really high skill is completely useless in PVP. But you throw a crap AS skill on a MP/Doc/Keeper and they cap with great recharge? WTH?

[McKnuckleSamwich]

well give it to keepers too then.

[EmSeeBee]

Well, from a shade stand point.. it's not like you can SA/Brawl/Dimach ..... dimach maxed and a really high skill is completely useless in PVP. But you throw a crap AS skill on a MP/Doc/Keeper and they cap with great recharge? WTH?

Maxed sneak attack doesn't always cap either. In fact a lot of times it doesn't. Low dimach skill on an adv is powerful but has a 30 MINUTE recharge, which makes it a lot less practical unless you time it just right with your alpha. IMO AS (non-craphander AS rather) is already more powerful than sneak attack seeing as how it pretty much always caps. The fact that it has less than half the recharge time makes it even less balanced.

As someone posted above though I guess the relevance of this thread will have to do with whatever upcoming changes are made to AS.

[supernaute]

Bump for this one!
Why should ranged have all the benefits

[erozc]

Bump for this one!
Why should ranged have all the benefits

Because melee can interrupt, shoot while moving and has flurry, plus bigger weapon damages

No, seriously, ranged doesn't have all the benefits. The biggest one of actual ranged benefits is the benefit of range, though. But who would've known?

[supernaute]

Because melee can interrupt, shoot while moving and has flurry, plus bigger weapon damages

No, seriously, ranged doesn't have all the benefits. The biggest one of actual ranged benefits is the benefit of range, though. But who would've known?

Mele dont have 11 sec capping specials.

[Shrubberyman]

Because melee can interrupt, shoot while moving and has flurry, plus bigger weapon damages

No, seriously, ranged doesn't have all the benefits. The biggest one of actual ranged benefits is the benefit of range, though. But who would've known?

I would personnaly add that ranged combat profs also benefit from the best AI armor offence and defence wise :
300 CM gives +30 AR and +15 Def;
300 CC +45 AR and +15 def;
300 CS +30 Nanoskill AR and +30 def,
300 CSS +45 AR and +30 def.

Sure, it's not always that simple with % checks, but still overall, best stats on the off/def field.

[EmSeeBee]

I would personnaly add that ranged combat profs also benefit from the best AI armor offence and defence wise :
300 CM gives +30 AR and +15 Def;
300 CC +45 AR and +15 def;
300 CS +30 Nanoskill AR and +30 def,
300 CSS +45 AR and +30 def.

Sure, it's not always that simple with % checks, but still overall, best stats on the off/def field.

Exactly. I'd much rather have melee skills with evades than melee skills with ranged skills. Then there's the fact that AS seems to cap far more often than SA and can be used almost 4 times by the time SA recharges.

Interrupts aren't terribly awesome in pvp when most half decent pvpers will be instacasting most of the nanos they use in combat anyway unless UBT'd. Having played casting profs before I can say that meleers interrupting the 1-2 second capped nanos wasn't much of a problem at all either. Sure it's a minor advantage but nothing like, 80% resist checks or 11s capping specials.

[Hacre]

Because Strong + Observant would be ridiculously overpowered.

That's just talking from a Keeper point of view as well. I could easily, with that, make a set up that'd stop Soldiers from reliably hitting full auto on a -keeper- who are supposed to be weak against ranged, while maintaining a high attack rating.

The ranged professions that make the most use out of CSS are professions that are supposed to, hi there Fixers, hi there Crats.

I also noticed someone earlier spouting garbage that AS always caps. No it doesn't. It doesn't cap 100% of the time for Agents (though they have the highest percentage of 30% caps out of AS by a mile) it certainly doesn't cap 100% of the time for people that have shoehorned it into their toolset.

Besides, never missing specials are getting changed, remember?

[MyGift]

Well roll range profession then if you think its so much better...

[Shrubberyman]

Because Strong + Observant would be ridiculously overpowered.

That's just talking from a Keeper point of view as well. I could easily, with that, make a set up that'd stop Soldiers from reliably hitting full auto on a -keeper- who are supposed to be weak against ranged, while maintaining a high attack rating.

The ranged professions that make the most use out of CSS are professions that are supposed to, hi there Fixers, hi there Crats.

I also noticed someone earlier spouting garbage that AS always caps. No it doesn't. It doesn't cap 100% of the time for Agents (though they have the highest percentage of 30% caps out of AS by a mile) it certainly doesn't cap 100% of the time for people that have shoehorned it into their toolset.

Besides, never missing specials are getting changed, remember?

There's no denying all this, Hacre. However, if you're right specials are changed, they aren't the only thing being changed. With what we have been told so far, we also know that CM and CC aren't gonna help anymore against NR checking perks, which is relatively a nerf of those wearing those armors, while some of the CSS using prof already got 80% def check perks... which is relatively a boost.
I ain't commenting on what is, was or will be OP, just pointing out that Ranged do have a number of real benefits that they don't share with melee users.

[mr_road]

Because Strong + Observant would be ridiculously overpowered

+45 defense and +30 offense is overpowered.

but +45 offense and +30 defense skills is not overpowered ?

fine. combined ninja's armor please. +30 melee skills, +30 evades/conceal/inits, +15 AAO.

[Hacre]

There's no denying all this, Hacre. However, if you're right specials are changed, they aren't the only thing being changed. With what we have been told so far, we also know that CM and CC aren't gonna help anymore against NR checking perks, which is relatively a nerf of those wearing those armors, while some of the CSS using prof already got 80% def check perks... which is relatively a boost.
I ain't commenting on what is, was or will be OP, just pointing out that Ranged do have a number of real benefits that they don't share with melee users.

CoNC aside, the perks you're talking about also won't factor in add all offense.

Well I say CoNC aside, we haven't seen any documentation on the General perk tab yet, only that AMS attack skill based perks won't count aao twice (which CoNC did).

+45 defense and +30 offense is overpowered.

but +45 offense and +30 defense skills is not overpowered ?

fine. combined ninja's armor please. +30 melee skills, +30 evades/conceal/inits, +15 AAO.

Gotta love it when people only look at the stats on a set of armour and completely fail to apply those stats to the bigger picture.

Keepers/Shades/MAs/Enforcers packing armour like that, on top of the defensive ratings they can already get and the extra inits serving to make all but UBT/doc procs useless when it comes to debuffing inits, with AS being changed, would not be lending itself to actually balancing things. It would be ridiculous.

Just off the top of my head, if I had armour like that for my Keeper, switch sleeves for Ofab (an extra 30 dodge over what you're asking for), dalja pants for an extra 20, dodge ranged rings, regular notucomm for +80, with all the aad and evades in my symbs I'd suddenly find my keeper wandering around with 3400 or so static dodge defense, that's before bringing blind rings and the Holy Mark aao debuffing perk and outside buffs/towers/evade procs into the picture.

That's for a profession that's supposedly weak to ranged. MAs have greater dodge def than that, as do Shades and Enforcers wouldn't be far behind.

You don't think that's overpowered? If you don't then you obviously have no interest in actually balancing anything at all.

[mr_road]

Gotta love it when people only look at the stats on a set of armour and completely fail to apply those stats to the bigger picture.

Keepers/Shades/MAs/Enforcers packing armour like that, on top of the defensive ratings they can already get and the extra inits serving to make all but UBT/doc procs useless when it comes to debuffing inits, with AS being changed, would not be lending itself to actually balancing things. It would be ridiculous.

Just off the top of my head, if I had armour like that for my Keeper, switch sleeves for Ofab (an extra 30 dodge over what you're asking for), dalja pants for an extra 20, dodge ranged rings, regular notucomm for +80, with all the aad and evades in my symbs I'd suddenly find my keeper wandering around with 3400 or so static dodge defense, that's before bringing blind rings and the Holy Mark aao debuffing perk and outside buffs/towers/evade procs into the picture.

That's for a profession that's supposedly weak to ranged. MAs have greater dodge def than that, as do Shades and Enforcers wouldn't be far behind.

You don't think that's overpowered? If you don't then you obviously have no interest in actually balancing anything at all.

your keeper can swap all that stuff anyway. spec ofab keeper head seems nice. if the rest of the armor was CM and you replaced it with the OP stuff... you'd gain 15 def rating per piece. chest/gloves/boots is 3 pieces which is a 45 increase in def rating. mystical chest gives more dodge, which drops the increase down to 25 def rating. hardly game breaking.

you forgot to add agent, MP, NT, Trader and Ranged Advie to the list of those than benefit from observant armor.

the only type of profession that doesn't get the benefit of observant armor with their combat skill is combat melee.

enforcers and melee advies would probably get too much of a benefit from this type of armor - but thats a problem with the amount of general defense gear that has come out lately and their other defenses combining with evades.

if perks start having a chance to land, profs reliant on evades are going to see their defense go the way of the dodo, stun proc and NT glasscannonness.

ps. i only made my comment because someone said ranged had an advantage, someone said they didn't, someone raised the point that CSS is > all, you said strong + obs would be OP and i was only pointing out the irony of supporting CSS while not supporting the melee equivalent.

pps. i just want the conceal for my shade. make it ma / shade only.

[Hacre]

you forgot to add agent, MP, NT, Trader and Ranged Advie to the list of those than benefit from observant armor.

None of those benefit to the degree that Fixers and Crats do and NTs don't get 45 nanoskills from Scouts, to compare CS to CSS. If you look at what I wrote, I said the only ranged professions that get the -most- benefit from CSS and have it fit perfectly with their toolset, are Fixers and Crats. Bow MPs aren't all that defensive and SoZ MPs wouldn't wear CSS anyway.

the only type of profession that doesn't get the benefit of observant armor with their combat skill is combat melee.

With good reason, which you go on to explain here:

enforcers and melee advies would probably get too much of a benefit from this type of armor - but thats a problem with the amount of general defense gear that has come out lately and their other defenses combining with evades.

This is irrelevant. Those items wouldn't suddenly go away if Observant based armour with Melee skills on it appeared.

if perks start having a chance to land, profs reliant on evades are going to see their defense go the way of the dodo, stun proc and NT glasscannonness.

Not at all. I'd like to see how you even consider this possible. Chance to land will still benefit evaders, because their chance of not landing would be greater, or their defense would cause a great deal of mitigation to the actual damage those perks do. Plus no one from FC has said that perks will switch to a "chance to land" mechanism, only players have suggested it.

ps. i only made my comment because someone said ranged had an advantage, someone said they didn't, someone raised the point that CSS is > all, you said strong + obs would be OP and i was only pointing out the irony of supporting CSS while not supporting the melee equivalent.

Because the melee equivalent would be over powered.

pps. i just want the conceal for my shade. make it ma / shade only.

No, MAs and Shades would benefit the most from having such armour and it isn't the right way to fix either of them. MAs defense is already fine, they're lacking in other areas and Shades recently got a conceal buff.

[Notcrattey]

I also noticed someone earlier spouting garbage that AS always caps. No it doesn't. It doesn't cap 100% of the time for Agents (though they have the highest percentage of 30% caps out of AS by a mile) it certainly doesn't cap 100% of the time for people that have shoehorned it into their toolset.

Neither does SA