As a result of losing 320 dodge Range

[Hacre]

If you defined "evade profession" by how the evades are available to you and not by how much evades you actually get in a final setup, then yeah I agree with you. If we put together a list of profs in average end game setups and compared static (buffed) defensive ratings, I still say the line between "evade proff" and "non-evade proff" has been blurred over the last few years.

To contribute to the topic though.. Atrox is not an evade breed, wit didn't fit, that's my stance.

Ok you just concentrate on the list and don't read the small paragraph that followed it at all, if it helps your argument.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

No matter which way you cut it, keepers who are already weak against ranged, are getting weaker vs ranged.

I'm not saying the change of atrox secondary genome perkline isn't good. I'm just saying that this change will exacerbate an already long standing problem.

[erozc]

No matter which way you cut it, keepers who are already weak against ranged, are getting weaker vs ranged.

I'm not saying the change of atrox secondary genome perkline isn't good. I'm just saying that this change will exacerbate an already long standing problem.

But Wit isn't and was not a profession perk, it was a breed perk. Hence it won't directly affect a profession's performance in general. This is the Mongo Rage argument, so it should apply here as well.

If you were to say that all professions are going to be weaker vs. ranged, you'd be partially correct. Then again, only troxes of every profession will have that property.

[Hacre]

But Wit isn't and was not a profession perk, it was a breed perk. Hence it won't directly affect a profession's performance in general. This is the Mongo Rage argument, so it should apply here as well.

If you were to say that all professions are going to be weaker vs. ranged, you'd be partially correct. Then again, only troxes of every profession will have that property.

You're right, but bear in mind that MR and Wit have been patchwork fixes to two very real Keeper issues, an ever increasing weakness to ranged professions and an ever increasing problem landing perks on people that can actually be killed by the Keeper "alpha", an alpha that for a long time has needed to be boosted by an AS swap (getting nerfed) to have any respectable damage output at all on anyone with more than 15-16K HP, a problem that by looking at Keeper perks is only getting worse rather than better even with the proposed changes.

[Ebondevil]

You're right, but bear in mind that MR and Wit have been patchwork fixes to two very real Keeper issues, an ever increasing weakness to ranged professions and an ever increasing problem landing perks on people that can actually be killed by the Keeper "alpha", an alpha that for a long time has needed to be boosted by an AS swap (getting nerfed) to have any respectable damage output at all on anyone with more than 15-16K HP, a problem that by looking at Keeper perks is only getting worse rather than better even with the proposed changes.

And these are things that should hopefully be fixed in the rebalancing, meaning that MR and wit should no longer be necessary patchwork fixes and instead could overpower the profession using them, unless they are given as profession perks, instead of breed ones.

[Hacre]

even with the proposed changes.

And these are things that should hopefully be fixed in the rebalancing, meaning that MR and wit should no longer be necessary patchwork fixes and instead could overpower the profession using them, unless they are given as profession perks, instead of breed ones.

Do pay attention. A good deal of Keeper issues are inherent to their perks. How many perk documents in are we, yet every single suggestion around Keeper perks has been flatly ignored, while some useful things in the Keeper toolset have been flat out nerfed, with no sort of explanation whatsoever.

So unless something in those perk docs changes for the better, don't expect Keepers to sit silent and wait.

[Ebondevil]

Do pay attention. A good deal of Keeper issues are inherent to their perks. How many perk documents in are we, yet every single suggestion around Keeper perks has been flatly ignored, while some useful things in the Keeper toolset have been flat out nerfed, with no sort of explanation whatsoever.

So unless something in those perk docs changes for the better, don't expect Keepers to sit silent and wait.

I am, I'm also aware that changes to nanos and equipment will make a difference to keepers as well, not just the changes to perks.

I'm not saying things as they stand should stay, but I don't think Keepers, or indeed any profession, should be relying on Breed perks to be able to perform properly.

[Switzerland]

You're right, but bear in mind that MR and Wit have been patchwork fixes to two very real Keeper issues, an ever increasing weakness to ranged professions and an ever increasing problem landing perks on people that can actually be killed by the Keeper "alpha", an alpha that for a long time has needed to be boosted by an AS swap (getting nerfed) to have any respectable damage output at all on anyone with more than 15-16K HP, a problem that by looking at Keeper perks is only getting worse rather than better even with the proposed changes.

and hotswap nerf affects keepers how :P?

and as far as wit is concerned you will all still die... i will just get annoyed easier

[Hacre]

and hotswap nerf affects keepers how :P?

You're aware that AS is being changed, yes? In such a manner that it's not going to fit in as a queue perks/swap to AS/press O as part of a swap alpha.

[Odov]

Ok you just concentrate on the list and don't read the small paragraph that followed it at all, if it helps your argument.

I didn't find it relevant... We were talking about keepers position as an evade prof, not what they originally were intended to be and what they are now. I read it, if it makes you feel better. I still think if keeper is an evade profession then so is just about everyone else. Let's all get dof/limber..

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I am, I'm also aware that changes to nanos and equipment will make a difference to keepers as well, not just the changes to perks.

I'm not saying things as they stand should stay, but I don't think Keepers, or indeed any profession, should be relying on Breed perks to be able to perform properly.

this is the crux of the problem.

If keepers ARE dependant on breed perks, (which we are), then we're failing as a prof.

If there ARE changes coming that will provide us with some more damage mitigation, either by evades, reflects, or absorbs, AND more damage through perks or profession based specials, then the cahnges to wit/AS/ etc will likely be fine, but, as they stand now, they are not fine.

[Towerblock]

I agree with this.

I just don't understand how a class that is supposed to be an evade class is to function as an evade class when the only decent perk for neutralizing our vastly insufficient dodge range skill is removed.

Keepers wont have access to that rock on ranged parry ability? Spec blockers + parry?

[Pomidor]

Be it. That perk was OP at low lvls and it only benefits troxes (enfs/solds).

C'mon 320 dodge rng. at lvl 35?

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Be it. That perk was OP at low lvls and it only benefits troxes (enfs/solds).

C'mon 320 dodge rng. at lvl 35?

/agree. but, at a level where you actually start using it, it's far from OP'd, in fact it's not enough.

On my twinked keeper, I STILL get perked through wit of atrox by soldiers.

i'm not saying keepers shouldn't get perked, ofc, And, certainly I agree that our weakness to ranged is part of the makeup of the profession, BUT!, I don't like that I chose atrox for this perk which is the ONLY reasonable way to get any kind of defence vs ranged profs, AND it's being taken away, AND it wasn't even enough to begin with.

IN other words, it would be nice to see some marginal increases to defence vs ranged... I mean, twinked solds can chew through my 13K hp and reflects without even using TMS/AMS, which kind of annoys me.

If the way to doing that is coupling imminence and barrier, to give us a meager 3-6% more reflects, I could see that as a method of staving off a hungry wolf, but, I think the problem needs a deeper look than that.

[sultryvoltron]

something about wit + keepers + low ranged defense.

You mean like parrying ranged hits? Or how about interruptible AS?

[McKnuckleSamwich]

You mean like parrying ranged hits? Or how about interruptible AS?

well, I am not sure if parry will affect ranged hits. And, AS isn't in question since it's a 100% hitting special, so whatever dodge range skill doesn't matter.

if we can parry ranged hits that would be interesting, and will add some balance vs solds.

interuptible AS is fine. Agents are getting another attack anyway aren't they?

[Metalynx]

I am, I'm also aware that changes to nanos and equipment will make a difference to keepers as well, not just the changes to perks.

I'm not saying things as they stand should stay, but I don't think Keepers, or indeed any profession, should be relying on Breed perks to be able to perform properly.

Another !ding

Breed persk unto themselves should NEVER have any bearing upon class abilities. Just because 90 of you all picked a atrox as a keeper (or whatever) and now your breed perk getsnerfed slightly...doesnt mean its a nerf unto your class.

Try to think outside the box for a moment.andpay attention to things beyond your narrow idea of the world how you feel it is.

Yeah...some combinations work nicley (damn me if I remember when Atrox were damn near the worst breed unless you playes a Enfo) now because of whiners..and cry babies..the best breed is indeed atrox ofverall..no matter the profession.


Bah. Not all games are about "winning" It's the massive amouhnt of pvp bungholes who have changed this game..and made various perks..and breed abilites more "neutral".

Bugger that. But that is my opinion. Everyone has their own.

[Venachar]

McKnuckleSamwich Quote:
Originally Posted by Phargus
Trox being the superior evade breed never made a lick of sense. This change will suck for twinks who made a setup around wit, but it's the lesser of two evils.

I agree with this.

I just don't understand how a class that is supposed to be an evade class is to function as an evade class when the only decent perk for neutralizing our vastly insufficient dodge range skill is removed.

Ar you stupid no offens? Go and do a lvl 1 character and read Atrox description they ar TANKS not EVADE toons atrox shold have never had acces to wits, opis yes but not atrox.

Im verry glad with the changes finaly the breeds ar starting to have perks that corespond to there description. Just wish they made mr a 1k aao and gaved opi a -1k aao perk that you can actualy land so both profesions can counter one another.

Litleangel; Go to the top of this forum and read the Forum Rules, and the Balance Discussion rules. Don't post again until you do, because you are liable to fall foul of me if you carry on calling other users idiots. Cheers.

[Hacre]

Another !ding

Breed persk unto themselves should NEVER have any bearing upon class abilities. Just because 90 of you all picked a atrox as a keeper (or whatever) and now your breed perk getsnerfed slightly...doesnt mean its a nerf unto your class.

It does when people rolled Atrox because it somewhat plugged massive holes in the profession (dodge defense and enough attack rating to perk people they can actually kill, via MR).

Creating a problem that rolling Atrox somewhat solves, then nerfing Atrox, is all on Funcom, not on the end user and as such Funcom need to fix properly. Period.

[Marinegent]

Ok you just concentrate on the list and don't read the small paragraph that followed it at all, if it helps your argument.

I think hacre's opinion counts for alot more than most other's here.

Sorry you got the shaft noobas, but as far as im concerned atrox does not = evade breed.