What's slowly killing the Agent profession..

[Marinegent]

Balance Forum should have the moniker of "Balance Discussion - Great big walls of text".

Agents are by nature, sneaky and not playing to your strengths, well.. it's just not butter imo.

You were defensively never strong (well with introduction of debuffs that actually hurt you :P) and alot seem to play, well defensively..

Sneaky agents playing offensively in groups would be better suited.

I will skip all the details and simply sum the big picture up into a sentence or two.

We don't want to be forced into defensive play styles or setups, generally. We are forced that way because it is not a viable option to PvP any other way currently.

[sultryvoltron]

Balance Forum should have the moniker of "Balance Discussion - Great big walls of text".

Agents are by nature, sneaky and not playing to your strengths, well.. it's just not butter imo.

You were defensively never strong (well with introduction of debuffs that actually hurt you :P) and alot seem to play, well defensively..

Sneaky agents playing offensively in groups would be better suited.

Here's how to fix Agents into your vision of how they should be played:

1) Increase alpha damage (not gonna happen).
2) Increase runspeed in sneak (might happen).
3) Allow agents to bypass defenses (I really really really doubt this will happen).
4) Unnerf bail out nanos (might happen).
5) Give Agents more AR (not sure about this possibility).

[Esqi]

Here's how to fix Agents into your vision of how they should be played:

1) Increase alpha damage (not gonna happen).
2) Increase runspeed in sneak (might happen).
3) Allow agents to bypass defenses (I really really really doubt this will happen).
4) Unnerf bail out nanos (might happen).
5) Give Agents more AR (not sure about this possibility).

With AS getting 'the def check', now it is completely justified that you get an increase in AR that is compareable with sold AR.

You know if Agents got a boost of 300 AR (150 rifle/150aao) alot of these issues would be of non consequence.

The only reason you never got an AR boost was well, due to AS always landing.

People are going to dodge your AS, that is a given and really.. if someone dodges your AS, it dont matter if your perks do 20k dmg each, if they dont land.. :P

Slight increase in sneak speed and a general overall increase in attack rating will help them alot, it's needed so that players stop thinking about trying to live through everything, but unload more on a target.

For me, an Agents best defence is its offence, boost the AR up and whammo, this holds true

[Kinkstaah]

Boosting the AR up so they can deliver the damage to everyone or deliver some damage to everyone

Increase sneak speed so that they can engage everyone

Add abilities to get out of ugly situations/debuffs/roots/zergs to a reasonable extent...

... and you have an Agent.
Without adding that last part, you just have another NT. This is boring

[srompu]

Slight increase in sneak speed and a general overall increase in attack rating will help them alot, it's needed so that players stop thinking about trying to live through everything, but unload more on a target.

Enfo thinking: I'll coon and BR and rage and fire troll. Then, I'll wade in, fear and palse the 220 doc to the stone age with my 3 stuns and 2 lines of 1s dd perks while tanking the 3 greenies, countering the 220 crat and 220 mp debuffs, absorbing the 220 sold perks, and maybe stomp out that 220 trader if I don't use the ai perks on the doc.
The fixer and advy will stand a safe distance away and chuck heals/HoTs because they know the Enfo could catch up and alpha them.

Agent thinking: I'll sneak in, get aoe rooted by the crat, desneak and unload a 4k AS and maybe a FA on the doc, followed by 3 dd perks to get the doc to 50% hp, get 2 of 3 of: (RIed by the green sold, NSDed by the green MP, GTHed by the green trader), UBTed and UBT proced by the 220 doc since he doesn't need to heal and he has 3 specials and dual-wield regulars, hit evac my nano and kite ferociously for 1s until that semi-afk Enfo hits his fear, allowing 2 of the greenies to AS me to death while the doc /discos and the Enfo goes back afk.
The fixer and advy will watch and /v lawl because they have root and perk immunity and can /walk to the backyard if they so desire.



Edit: Just trying to humorously illustrate the main problem with unloading on a target and not worrying about dying

Edit #2:
If you're AR setup, you'll get the doc to 40%, and you'll die from the initial AS volley rather than surviving until the fear snare hits.
If you're DEF setup, your AS will be 3k and your FA will miss. You'll get the doc to 60% hp. The greenies will hit crappy ASes and you'll zone into the backyard at 0 hp.
If you're HP setup, your AS will be 3k and your FA will miss. You'll get the doc to 60% hp. The greenies will cap AS on you and you'll die as above.
If you're NR2, you won't have TP buffs and will be neither AR, nor Def, nor HP, and upon mashing the bail out nano, you'll discover you can't use it when you have Dominate Sense-Imp on you. This will be hilarious to the 210 MP.

[Esqi]

BY pvp is to easily controllable, by anyone :P

Close proximity to BY's, LOS, /assist macro radar, /aoe root radar etc etc :P

[srompu]

Yeah, you make a good point besides missing mine.

The solution to City PvP imbalance is to BY hug.

[wolfmyth]

I always thought the agents main defense was to stay hidden until the time comes to strike the selected target down, seems like a big defensive toolset to me being able to pick what fights you wish to engage in and what ones to leave alone.

[Mereditche]

I always thought the agents main defense was to stay hidden until the time comes to strike the selected target down, seems like a big defensive toolset to me being able to pick what fights you wish to engage in and what ones to leave alone.

Have you any idea how slow you move when hidden. The time it takes you to sneak to teleporter at the start of the fight will probably mean the fight is 90% over once you reach mid. And agents are lucky they are ranged, I can only feel sorry for shades.

[wolfmyth]

Have you any idea how slow you move when hidden. The time it takes you to sneak to teleporter at the start of the fight will probably mean the fight is 90% over once you reach mid. And agents are lucky they are ranged, I can only feel sorry for shades.

There seems to be plenty of good agents that don't have this as a big of an issue you claim this to be. It does require a tiny bit of thought on proper execution.

[somenamehere]

I always thought the agents main defense was to stay hidden until the time comes to strike the selected target down, seems like a big defensive toolset to me being able to pick what fights you wish to engage in and what ones to leave alone.

Unless you are in favour of agents instakilling people if they attack them from sneak, then you need to give agents enough defence to be able to stand there while their perks unload (which currently at least takes forever and doesn't kill anyone semi-decent, provided you can even perk them).
Instakilling is boring (and stupid) so guess what agents should get.

[ArienSky]

AOE root, Shadow on the ground, pets being visible.
Sadly it isn't working that great..

Granted, Agents get a big plus to sneaking via nanos, research and equipment.
but with the AO sill system, it is a viable option for other professions too.


Let us say that the balancing will remove the easy ways (exploits?) to spot someone sneaking.
Then please try the playstyle..

An agent sneaking past the cultists in ToTW is actually slower than a trader or crat calming the self same mobs. The same goes for "sneaking a mission" instead of blitzing it.

It is veeeeery slow and veeeeery boring.
There is absolutely no active action.
The crats/traders get some fun button smashing and a fast result.

I am a fan of things requiring more skill, giving better rewards.
if sneaking is meant as a defence, it indeed is the most boring one, as it gives you absolutely no action.

Also it is not a panic button, you need things to go right from the start.
I would almost call it a passive defence, except that when you start fighting, the defence goes out the window.


Active defences (cocoon) are nice, as that mean you can take on a big challenge, or survive wandering mobs, while passive defences (heal aura) you can only take on a measured amount of adversary on, which will be the same again and again and again, if something unexpected happens, you die.

Sneaking is a cool feature in AO.
But not all cool things are fun.

If it was to me, people should have a better advantage of sneaking, being able to re-hide as an example.
Nano technology might be able to detect muzzle-flares, but some stealthy technology, should be able to camouflage people again, if nothing else then reduce the distance that others can see you, giving you a range advantage.

With 40 meters as the maximum distance in AO, the benefit of sneaking is not that great.
I could imagine sneaking as it is in AO being powerful in Unreal Tournament, where there are no active defences and longer distances.

I use sneaking, very seldom:
at lower levels, to get past mobs, as it would take longer combating them all.
at any level with mobs I can not kill.
to explore the shadowlands and it's beauty.


to me Ruse 3 sucks up too much NCU at TL5 BS for me to use it, there are other nanos I would rather have running.

I have more fun sitting in an AT turret than standing still in sneak.
If agents had a very good alpha, then sure sneaking is great, but when people survive anyway because they have active defences, even when you have the benefit of surprise, then it isn't that fun.

again, that is one of the fun part of being agent: a huge challenge.
it requires skill to be a good agent. That is at least my experience, from the toons I have.

I would indeed miss sneak in PVM, if it was removed, it feels cool.
but as a practical tool I don't use it much. I just press H before ASing; it isn't a defence.

Kind Regards
-Ariensky

[Lupusceleri]

There seems to be plenty of good agents that don't have this as a big of an issue you claim this to be. It does require a tiny bit of thought on proper execution.

No, guess what the good agents have?

They don't use sneak, if they have to move a stupidly long distance.

[sultryvoltron]

So... Agent AS, if fired from sneak, should prevent all active defenses for 15 seconds? Also turn off blockers for 15 seconds.

Also increase sneak speed, but give conceal a time limit. Alternatively, give a "vanish" ability that makes you invisible even if you were already in combat and buffs runspeed by 1000. Cannot be targeted, cannot be tabbed, cannot be seen, run at full speed, and lasts 30 seconds. Oh hey... that's like our bail out line except it doesn't suck.

[Moonbolt]

So... Agent AS, if fired from sneak, should prevent all active defenses for 15 seconds? Also turn off blockers for 15 seconds.

Also increase sneak speed, but give conceal a time limit. Alternatively, give a "vanish" ability that makes you invisible even if you were already in combat and buffs runspeed by 1000. Cannot be targeted, cannot be tabbed, cannot be seen, run at full speed, and lasts 30 seconds. Oh hey... that's like our bail out line except it doesn't suck.

i was just abotu thinking the same thing as sultry here.
as i played rogue in wow i know the benefits of stealth in a MMO.
stealht is a very powerful tool tho and need to come at some downside (speed).
but the speed limitations in AO sneak is silly.
in wow u atleast had 75% of ur spead while stealthed.

also i think that "flashbangs/smokeflares" on a 5 min CD or something could be a very agentish tool and give them an ohh**** button.
for example : break combat, put the user in stealth, give a 100% runspeed while in stealth for 8 seconds.
it could also have a 2 sec stun to it to prevent the player that is fighting the agent/shade just targeting himself and throwing an area root before the agent/shade could get out of range from them.

with a long recharge like 5 mins it wouldnt realy affect every pvp fight in a towerbattle/BS but it wuold be a very nice ohhhh crap button for the 2 stealth profs when they get called at NW or is about to loose a fight in BS or w/e.

[sultryvoltron]

also i think that "flashbangs/smokeflares" on a 5 min CD or something could be a very agentish tool and give them an ohh**** button.
for example : break combat, put the user in stealth, give a 100% runspeed while in stealth for 8 seconds.
it could also have a 2 sec stun to it to prevent the player that is fighting the agent/shade just targeting himself and throwing an area root before the agent/shade could get out of range from them.

with a long recharge like 5 mins it wouldnt realy affect every pvp fight in a towerbattle/BS but it wuold be a very nice ohhhh crap button for the 2 stealth profs when they get called at NW or is about to loose a fight in BS or w/e.

That's an interesting application of the general concept of resneaking. Anything like it would really work, but options for the devs are cool

[deltazer0]

i was just abotu thinking the same thing as sultry here.
as i played rogue in wow i know the benefits of stealth in a MMO.
stealht is a very powerful tool tho and need to come at some downside (speed).
but the speed limitations in AO sneak is silly.
in wow u atleast had 75% of ur spead while stealthed.

also i think that "flashbangs/smokeflares" on a 5 min CD or something could be a very agentish tool and give them an ohh**** button.
for example : break combat, put the user in stealth, give a 100% runspeed while in stealth for 8 seconds.
it could also have a 2 sec stun to it to prevent the player that is fighting the agent/shade just targeting himself and throwing an area root before the agent/shade could get out of range from them.

with a long recharge like 5 mins it wouldnt realy affect every pvp fight in a towerbattle/BS but it wuold be a very nice ohhhh crap button for the 2 stealth profs when they get called at NW or is about to loose a fight in BS or w/e.

I like the flashbang idea very much, especially for agents and/or soldiers. Have it also have a white blind for one second along with the two-second stun. Should be area of effect to all enemy targets. I don't think it should give any bonuses to sneaking though (sneaking itself should get fixed).

The smokescreen could be some sort of an item/nano/perk that adds AAD to the agent and decreases AAO of the agent as well to prevent it from being used as a combative evades item. Should raise AAD significantly and lower AAO significantly to allow the agent to get the hell out of there rather than encourage them to just use it as some sort of evade perk.

I personally don't understand why Agents have dark blue dodge-ranged when we're supposed to be snipers...

[Moonbolt]

u kinda missing the point when ur asking for soldiers to get it.
it was ment as a means to restealth the user and let him run away.
the 100% runspeed during 5 secs would be to manage to get out of range for AoE snares etc same as the 2 sec stun would make it like the target was dissoriented to prevent insta casting of AoE snare to pop them out of stealth again.

[doubbleagent]

Here is the problem with all these changes for "PVP"

They are about to completely RUIN PVM in the process.

If you completely screw up speed, healing and alphas what the heck is going to happen to players and player teams once they hit Pen and higher?

I wish means and his crew would stop and think about the impact on the WHOLE GAME.

Are they going to adjust all mobs to fit the new setup? Are they really going to make this game impossible except for mega teams of twinks when the player base is already almost gone?

think about it.

[sultryvoltron]

Here is the problem with all these changes for "PVP"

They are about to completely RUIN PVM in the process.

If you completely screw up speed, healing and alphas what the heck is going to happen to players and player teams once they hit Pen and higher?

I wish means and his crew would stop and think about the impact on the WHOLE GAME.

Are they going to adjust all mobs to fit the new setup? Are they really going to make this game impossible except for mega teams of twinks when the player base is already almost gone?

think about it.

This is a double post... I don't see what the problem is. PvM will be fine. If anything, they will make it harder since it is pretty trivial at the moment.