I can't believe you nerfed Soldiers..

[Lupusceleri]

Maybe you're soldier just sux? Gatester already pointed all this out, but if you're having trouble killing enforcers as a soldier you're doing something really really wrong.

Random's 220 soldier doesn't suck at all, take it from me he's the best I fought on RK2 so far.

Maybe tho your Enf just sucks. And Gatester isn't exactly known for his TL7 pvp capibilities.. as much as he may wtfpwn lowbie levels. He even says himself his enf is built for pvm, well, big surprise if you don't perform as well as a pvp built enf.

Also keep in mind the enf can kite the soldier too, no need to stick around while AMS is up, you can just run around a bit in BS, hug some corners, and only fight when AMS is out. It's not like soldier runspeed is anywhere near enf one.

[Kinkstaah]

Random's 220 soldier doesn't suck at all, take it from me he's the best I fought on RK2 so far.

Maybe tho your Enf just sucks. And Gatester isn't exactly known for his TL7 pvp capibilities.. as much as he may wtfpwn lowbie levels. He even says himself his enf is built for pvm, well, big surprise if you don't perform as well as a pvp built enf.

Also keep in mind the enf can kite the soldier too, no need to stick around while AMS is up, you can just run around a bit in BS, hug some corners, and only fight when AMS is out. It's not like soldier runspeed is anywhere near enf one.

Yep.
You would be stunned how much rage this generates too, I've never seen anything like it.

[Hacre]

Setup I'm working on has just under 3k dodge and 2.9k evade close for the def ratings. This is because it has exactly 100 points more of dodge skill in it from IP and symbs, and because things that buff evades tend to buff all evades with a few notable exceptions.

Just under 3k in both isn't going to net you squat, so my point pretty much stands. You might evade an occasional regular hit, or have a low hitting FA on the 3rd Tuesday in Lent. Woop.

Why does RK2 insist on thrashing the dead horse that is the "evade" Soldier when it's highly pointless outside of -maybe- PvM? When the more offensive options are actually better, because the target you're worrying about evading, dies faster?

Srs question.

[Berinda]

Just under 3k in both isn't going to net you squat, so my point pretty much stands. You might evade an occasional regular hit, or have a low hitting FA on the 3rd Tuesday in Lent. Woop.

Yeah, it's all about PvP all the time, right?

And if it's not viable I put my old gear back on and I've learned something.

[Manicmouse]

These days soldiers need all the DD we can get in PVM with us falling further down the damage pecking order... CC all the way ^^

We will fall further down if nothing is done about us losing our PU line.

[valaris]

I suggest: Bury your soldiers and play something else!
In the last 2+ years Funcom has proven that they hate soldiers, with every patch they nerfed Smg-Soldier more and more and brought only love for Assrif.

I kept my Smgs, not matter what FC did to us, but this rebalancing issues will finally kill soldiers.
After rebalancing they will not only suck in PVP, but will also be at the bottom of the DD-Dealer-Ranking.

So use the time that you have left to say goodbye to your soldiers, i said goodbye over a year ago, ... sad but true.

[Manicmouse]

I suggest: Bury your soldiers and play something else!
In the last 2+ years Funcom has proven that they hate soldiers, with every patch they nerfed Smg-Soldier more and more and brought only love for Assrif.

I kept my Smgs, not matter what FC did to us, but this rebalancing issues will finally kill soldiers.
After rebalancing they will not only suck in PVP, but will also be at the bottom of the DD-Dealer-Ranking.

So use the time that you have left to say goodbye to your soldiers, i said goodbye over a year ago, ... sad but true.

What? SMG soldiers got awesome new weapons with LoX. They are still way above AR soldiers in PVM damage.

SMG was never meant to be competitive with AR for attack rating in PVP.

[Gunfytr]

SMG was never meant to be competitive with AR for attack rating in PVP.

I would like to see this change.

[randomalpha]

actually smg soldier doing very well in pvp atm we have way too low AR but still with some tricks u can handle that (don't mean MR) but when the AS nerf and PU nerf hit live smg soldier will be nerfed in both pvm and pvp we still screaming for smg buff , hope it make it to the live before the nerf so we can enjoy the smg setup for alittle more

[Manicmouse]

actually smg soldier doing very well in pvp atm we have way too low AR but still with some tricks u can handle that (don't mean MR) but when the AS nerf and PU nerf hit live smg soldier will be nerfed in both pvm and pvp we still screaming for smg buff , hope it make it to the live before the nerf so we can enjoy the smg setup for alittle more

Ya that's true as it stands SMG soldier does very well in PVP, but as you said we know the nerfstick is going to be wielded for AS and PU.

SMG soldiers will probably use a Dreadloch Rapier for their PU perks and with a little luck we will get access to a new soldier only damage perk line for AR.

So professionals do your job!!

[Gatester]

Maybe tho your Enf just sucks. And Gatester isn't exactly known for his TL7 pvp capibilities.. as much as he may wtfpwn lowbie levels. He even says himself his enf is built for pvm, well, big surprise if you don't perform as well as a pvp built enf.

You should remember that I was a PVP setup 1he/1hb (3.4k AR) enfo before they nerfed 1he/1hb and that a PVM enfo also has the best chance of beating a soldier in a fight. PVM has more health and def than a pvp enf, who will have maybe 1 additional stun and more AR.

Using BR, Lifeblood, Coon, Enf Booster, spamming absorbs and not actually attacking you may be able to get through a good soldiers AMS, otherwise you just gotta run away.

Just under 3k in both isn't going to net you squat, so my point pretty much stands. You might evade an occasional regular hit, or have a low hitting FA on the 3rd Tuesday in Lent. Woop.

Why does RK2 insist on thrashing the dead horse that is the "evade" Soldier when it's highly pointless outside of -maybe- PvM? When the more offensive options are actually better, because the target you're worrying about evading, dies faster?

Srs question.

Again, if enforcers are so hard to cap FA on and avoid so much damage with 2650 dodge defense, how will soldiers only avoid a hit on the "3rd Tuesday in Lent" with 2900+? Is there some special rule for soldiers that means their evades and AR does not work as well as every other profession?

If you are not aware, that amount of evades works incredibly well in mass pvp where it avoids a great deal of damage and perks when coupled with team buffs, it stops a lot of pet damage making kiting less vital, you can avoid perks from many non-endgame toons and easily the damage from players and profs who do not have AR setups or simply any AR at all.

The issue is not whether 2.9k def is good or not, any idiot should know that it is a very nice level of def, the issue involves soldier's other areas of survival, pretty much the ones your prof completely ignores Hasce.

[Questra]

About 3 months ago I calculated the highest def levels a solitus soldier could get without setup suicide (loosing more defense than the evades and AAD would make up for).

For example, to give up the OFAB back for a Notucomm is madness.

My numbers were a lot lower than 3k. Do you mean a trox soldier using soon-to-be-changed Wit, Gate?

We may as well talk about trox soldier's here, because in a defensive setup you're going to need MR to be of any use to any team.

Let's not waste any more space on this "OPed defensive soldiers" issue. There are more important topics for soldiers to invest their time on, and I rarely see soldiers dishing out as much flak in other prof forums as you do in ours. I think it's time for you to go back to the Notum Mines, focus on what's going to affect your prof in the coming rebalance, and drop this bickering.

Let's all leave it at that.

[Lupusceleri]

You should remember that I was a PVP setup 1he/1hb (3.4k AR) enfo before they nerfed 1he/1hb and that a PVM enfo also has the best chance of beating a soldier in a fight. PVM has more health and def than a pvp enf, who will have maybe 1 additional stun and more AR.

Using BR, Lifeblood, Coon, Enf Booster, spamming absorbs and not actually attacking you may be able to get through a good soldiers AMS, otherwise you just gotta run away.

1. 1he/1hb setup didn't get nerfed, at all. It's now much better than before.
2. PvM enfo is usually not as much focused on alpha, if I'm not mistaken, and you're going to need that to kill the Soldier in AMS downtime.
3. With LOS abuse, I mean you just run circles around an object. It can delay the Soldier's Burst/FA, and completely stops regular hits.

Again, if enforcers are so hard to cap FA on and avoid so much damage with 2650 dodge defense, how will soldiers only avoid a hit on the "3rd Tuesday in Lent" with 2900+? Is there some special rule for soldiers that means their evades and AR does not work as well as every other profession?

That's because of the way game mechanics are. Full Auto damage increases by additional landed bullets, but the moment you miss one bullet in the chain the whole Full Auto is aborted. Result of that is a 2 bullet FA on a target with super high hp, AKA, nowhere near a 30% cap, when you rely on the attack taking a big chunk out of the targets hp bar. For Soldier vs Enforcer it can potentially mean an 8k+ damage loss.

Enforcers (or other profs) don't suffer from that problem, one missed hit is just a missed hit. You lose out on ~1k damage or so, and move on.

If you are not aware, that amount of evades works incredibly well in mass pvp where it avoids a great deal of damage and perks when coupled with team buffs, it stops a lot of pet damage making kiting less vital, you can avoid perks from many non-endgame toons and easily the damage from players and profs who do not have AR setups or simply any AR at all.

I know, I'm in a def setup myself remember. You're rarely in such a team with all evade buffs though. And trust me, if you get called in mass pvp, you're still going to die unless you run like a maniac. AMS is a Soldier's defense in mass pvp, not evades. In AMS downtime, you run to the back of your blob to wait out the debuff, then you run back to the front and AMS again.

[Gatester]

1. 1he/1hb setup didn't get nerfed, at all. It's now much better than before.

Please, do tell how the 1he/1hb alpha is better now?

That's because of the way game mechanics are. Full Auto damage increases by additional landed bullets, but the moment you miss one bullet in the chain the whole Full Auto is aborted. Result of that is a 2 bullet FA on a target with super high hp, AKA, nowhere near a 30% cap, when you rely on the attack taking a big chunk out of the targets hp bar. For Soldier vs Enforcer it can potentially mean an 8k+ damage loss.

Enforcers (or other profs) don't suffer from that problem, one missed hit is just a missed hit. You lose out on ~1k damage or so, and move on.

So according to your, Hasce, and many other soldiers logic here:

~40000 health and 2650 dodge def avoids almost all FA damage >= 50% of the time because soldiers 3200 Full Auto AR and dodge debuffs are not enough to be effective against enforcer high health.

However,

~23000+ health and ~50% reflects (doesn't that reduce damage or increase the effectives of a players health?) and 2900 dodge def will avoid Full Auto damage < .01% of the time because....you guys say so.

I totally thought more dodge was better than less, and that reflects helped reduce damage people take, you know making 23000 health with 50% reflects more like 46000 max health. Well if my assumption that the proportion of reflects to max health coupled with a reduction in soldier damage during AMS downtime through evading regular damage and perks was less effective than perhaps 50 points of HD was completely flawed then I suppose that makes everything I thought I knew completely incorrect.

Really sucks that soldiers can't even hotswap things like defensive research with offense and other items while AMS is running so they avoid much of the Attack Rating issue while their main defense is running, and simply make use of the high evades during AMS downtime

I can see now I was wrong, reflects do not reduce damage, soldiers cannot hotswap hud/util/armor items, evades only work for every other profession, everyone is running around with 3000+ attack rating, Full Auto is completely broken (unless used on an evade soldier), and soldiers cannot land regular hits or specials unless they have an attack rating over 3500. You guys aren't the 2nd nerfest, YOU ARE the Nerfest prof in AO.

Heh, this is fun, it actually reminds me of when I tutored the remedial students in High School. Although I must say, I have a lot more respect for Berinda for actually trying the setup, rather than just making stuff up. I think the main point that should be made though, is that there is nothing saying you can have only one setup at a time. Karstas has what 3 bags of gear he swaps depending on a situation? If you do not believe you can switch to ofab back from notucomm depending on who you are fighting or who is around, or switch your hud and utils, then there is a reason you think these setups cannot work while I know they can.

[Berinda]

Although I must say, I have a lot more respect for Berinda for actually trying the setup, rather than just making stuff up.

I don't have the gear for the setup, yet - I'm still getting it together. You're either misunderstanding what people are saying, or willfully misinterpreting it if you think soldier evades are rock-solid in PvP however. Playstyle has a lot to do with it, and from what I've been figuring it mostly benefits PvM tanking.

Additionally, everyone needs to lay off of the personal insults. If you can't get your point across without calling the person you're debating stupid, then your point probably doesn't have much merit. It'll also prevents me from horribly mutilating the thread accidentally if my first moderation attempt gets botched.

[Lupusceleri]

Please, do tell how the 1he/1hb alpha is better now?

1hb perks deal more than 150 pvm damage now? If that doesn't qualify as an improvement, I'm at a loss for words. Oh, you mean 1hb perks locking out 1he perks? That Funcom fix doesn't even work, as usual, all you have to do is queue them up together. This is the reason every enf and their dog went 1hb/1he setup instead of sticking with 2he.

~40000 health and 2650 dodge def avoids almost all FA damage >= 50% of the time because soldiers 3200 Full Auto AR and dodge debuffs are not enough to be effective against enforcer high health.

Pretty sure Enf can get more than 2650 def, seeing how I've been missing perks with ~2900 AR. Not counting Wit btw.

~23000+ health and ~50% reflects (doesn't that reduce damage or increase the effectives of a players health?) and 2900 dodge def will avoid Full Auto damage < .01% of the time because....you guys say so.

Not everyone you fight is a Soldier or Fixer with FA. 2.9k def doesn't save you from getting perked or just hit the normal way.

I just explained why even mediocre evades are a very effective defense against FA, and I don't feel like repeating myself. This is the prime reason my Agent is still in a dodge setup against Soldiers, even though he's getting perked by them left and right (including dodge debuffs which should be running during essential moments).

Heh, this is fun, it actually reminds me of when I tutored the remedial students in High School.

I feel sorry for your pupils. You must be one of those teachers who just can't listen to a student speaking reason just because they're a student.

If you do not believe you can switch to ofab back from notucomm depending on who you are fighting or who is around, or switch your hud and utils, then there is a reason you think these setups cannot work while I know they can.

Soldier Ofab Back >>> NotuComm when you know you aren't going to evade perks. 5% reflect, and way more ACs (which you as PvM enf should know the importance of).

[Questra]

Ok, quick guys. I'm going to cleverly disguise this Bridge over here as the soldier forums. Once the trolls rush it, lets move.

We can rename our forum The Love Boat and wear hawaiian shirts to fool passing soldier-haters. Little will they know our mai tais are really molotoff cocktails.

Seriously though, Notucomm instead of OFAB back? This is getting ridiculous. End it here or I'll ask for the thread to be closed. This is going nowhere fast and it's accomplishing nothing.

[Berinda]

On a fully decked out solitus or opifex evade soldier, a Notucomm would have it's moments. Problem is those breeds can't switch to an Ofab back on the fly without swapping a few items, so they can hardly go from Notucomm to Ofab on a whim so the idea is impractical in a fight. Since the Ofab back is overwhelmingly superior for a variety of PvP situations, there's no compelling reason to not use it constantly.

Also, Gatester, the fact you keep bringing up a fictional soldier that has the attack rating of an atrox and the static def of a solitus is a situation that would never occur.

Additionally, I request that I get to wear a sarong instead of a Hawaiin shirt on The Love Boat.

[Creacal]

Removed a number of posts. Please post in consideration, or not at all.

[Boltgun]

A defense setup would have its moments against two kinds of people : those whose weaponry isn't their highlight, and those who have bad ar but shouldn't, and won't after balance (maybe shades and agents, MAYBE). So in short you'll soak a minor part of people toolset while crippling yours and still getting hit by those you really should evade (other fighters). I'm not saying it would suck completely and shouldn't be tried, but I'm sure as hell you'll get spanked by more people then you'll avoid.

I'll make it simple, you can go full evades but can't except to score kills or even fight your peers with that. Solds simply cannot get enough evades for that. Attack rating increase over defense is the big point of LE. And even then it's not without saying that the first loss is your reflect and hp, then your offense. That's major losses for a sold.