Friday with Means - May 21st, 2010 - Instability in Greece caused by Macrosun!

[Lusos101]

A couple of people griefing towers out of many hundreds is a small percentage of the total population. And even 100 vs 100 occasional battles are a small percentage of the population.

NB-Nothing against PvP, but PVP is a SMALL part of the game. To make it a bigger part we need:

1-More people which means fixing PvM gameplay, specially in lower levels, before anything else.

2-Fixing broken PvP and making it fun.

[Alternity]

A couple of people griefing towers out of many hundreds is a small percentage of the total population. And even 100 vs 100 occasional battles are a small percentage of the population.

NB-Nothing against PvP, but PVP is a SMALL part of the game. To make it a bigger part we need:

1-More people which means fixing PvM gameplay, specially in lower levels, before anything else.

2-Fixing broken PvP and making it fun.

I agree on that, what making me nervous tho is FunCom insisting on revamping the nemesis nanos.
TL7 PvP is already complex, adding an extra layer of debuffs on top of the Debuff Online we play atm, won't do anything for the "fun" factor.

[Wrangeline]

Where? I don't think I've seen one of those since 2004 or 2005.

Well, I have.
Having that said though, when big PvP battles have been seen is besides the point since this is about people's personalities and tendencies, not a "where were you at the day in question"-type thing.

Some people here seem to have missed the point I was trying to make though. I'm not trying to convince people that PvP in AO is more active than they think it is. I'm trying to explain that how active PvP is atm, or at any given time, does not represent how big portion of the playerbase is actually interested in PvP. You can have a MMO where 90% of the playerbase enjoy PvP but also happens to enjoy PvM and since the game doesn't offer GOOD and BALANCED PvP scenarios, that aspect of the game gets neglected and PvM just takes over by default. The point is that if the game DOES offer a good and balanced outlet for PvP, those same people will go for it and have a lot of fun with it.

NW for many years have been plagued with one side completely overshadowing the other side. Which side is overshadowing the other changes from time to time but this imbalance, in such a low population game, causes a lack of active PvP. These people may want to PvP but it's hard to do so on a regular basis when you need to create your own mini-revolution every single time you want to have some PvP fun because it's hard to convince people to join in on an attack when the odds are heavily against them before they even set a foot out the door.

When clan and omni are balanced, you will see some things:

1. Tara can crash completely because there are so many people there.
2. How many attend NW didn't depend on how many wanted to go but how many the server could handle before transporting them out of the area.
3. Bases will be taken and retaken every single day.

People do want to PvP, they just need it to be balanced so that it doesn't become a continuous banging of their heads against a concrete wall.

Now, before some of you say "Sure, a big group of people might show up for the odd fight for whatever reason but it's just the same people going. That's basically all of them."

No, you have no cause to say that. First of all, even among the most active PvP'ers, not all of them can make every fight. Secondly, you have no way of knowing how interested the people who generally don't show up for PvP are in this activity. They may have various issues with PvP in AO specifically like imbalance or lack of rewards and if those things were fixed, they might join in on the PvP and have a blast doing so. You don't know how "most people" feel about PvP on a personal level so don't downplay it just because of how you personally feel about it. (By "you" I mean whoever this post is directed towards. It's not directed towards any one person in particular)

There are 198 trillion people out there (give or take 15-16 people) that would have fun PvP'ing if only it weren't for those other PvP'ers that smacktalk and call them noobs when they die. Such a small issue, that is almost not even directly connected with PvP, is all that stands in the way of all these people joining in on PvP.

There are some people that needs a proper context to enjoy PvP and simply doesn't feel that BS provides that because it's so incredibly generic and predictable. Perhaps this new playfield Means is working on can change that?

There are 786.9 quadrillion people out there that would love to PvP if it wasn't so hard to get the gear and twinking done to be "viable" in AO. Imagine all those people that actually enjoy PvP but just so happens to have a real life and can't be bothered to spend all that time and energy trying to become super-duper twink. If it were easier to jump into the PvP action and actually being able to win the odd fight here and there, these people might join.

My point is, the amount of PvP we see ingame atm is not indicative of how many PEOPLE are actually interested in PvP. Any lack of PvP in AO is a symptom. Reacting to this symptom as if there was no cause behind it at all, is just taking a problem and making it worse in the hope that it will go away that way. Which isn't helpful

[Reacon]

A quick suggestion:

Zones sorta neutral territory, but not quite used as often other than for missions should be suppression gas 25%, with or without objectives. I think that areas like Stret West Bank would nicely fill in the "zones" for open PvP.

[shadowgod]

A quick suggestion:

Zones sorta neutral territory, but not quite used as often other than for missions should be suppression gas 25%, with or without objectives. I think that areas like Stret West Bank would nicely fill in the "zones" for open PvP.

long long ago, on a rubika without towers... entire 0% gas zones existed. not to mention alot more 25% areas.

[Mongo316]

Awesome, I like the graphical boost of all of them. Can't wait tell everything is done, it i will be like a whole new game.

[Tanisthonus]

A quick suggestion:

Zones sorta neutral territory, but not quite used as often other than for missions should be suppression gas 25%, with or without objectives. I think that areas like Stret West Bank would nicely fill in the "zones" for open PvP.

Stret West? But that's where the party people go!

[Tyfowler]

Did troxes never have eyebrows? im zooming in on my character now....nope my trox has eyebrows

[Chrys]

The NM head was ok. The opi head has lost opifex's angular qualities and gone with bulbous nose and lips (wtf??). the atrox head though... *facepalm*

[PhoenixOfAges]

How much BS runs doesn't tell us much about how many are interested in PvP in AO. If you want to do something that involves 200 people in AO, you do PvP because there are 100 vs 100 fights happening from time to time. Good luck getting that many involved in any PvM scenario

How many years ago was that when there were 100 vs 100 PvP fights? I've heard of those huge tower or Tara battles that crashed the zone too, that was ages and ages ago though. Welcome to today.

Before iPand there were some pretty big raid groups doing Pand covering only one side at a time and some big ones for S42 earlier on too. If there's the population in game and a reason to pull in tons of people PvM can do that as well. AO though has moved more towards smaller group content and the population is getting smaller all the time.

70% of my motivation for doing any kind of PvM in a MMO is based on what kind of PvP it can let me do. I might not PvP all the time but PvP is always in the back of my mind and a carrot on a string for me.

If most of the people playing wanted to PvP and PvPed only about 25% of the time spent in game PvP content would be a lot more active than it is now.

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This the number of tower attacks last week or so on RK1, is pretty close to 100.
There is enough attacks going over a wide spectrum of TL ranges, I've had a few days where I could 6 hours per day doing nothing but NW on my tl5 and tl7.
WIsh my TL3 and 4 toons were done, so I could join there also.

If you want to you could log one char at a time and do towers on your own all day. That doesn't mean towers is very active on a whole or that PvP is going on though. Can't remember the name anymore but there was this one guy on RK2 with lower lvl Omni chars that would do that, on his own or with another one of his chars he'd just hit one tower site after another for hours each day. He could lay waste to a side in no time and doubt he encountered much resistance. Think he quit AO a ways back though.

Also if that's just initiated attacks some of those will be one guy accidentally starting one as he had auto attack on and was in an open field. Then outside of TL7 and some TL5 battles many are just one or a few guys attacking towers no one comes to defend. Those aren't PvP battles, that's PvM.

Seven days is 168 hours. So just 100 or so attacks in that time is not even one attack of any lvl per hour. If it were really active there'd often be multiple tower battles at multiple lvl ranges making for far more than 100 attacks in a week.

Then currently on RK2 there is a bit of a push to change the side XP. So right now it's more active than it can usually be. Meaning 100 is on the high side, not the average.

More options is better here.

Although as I said who will go to all those options? If what we have now is having real activity issues and heavily relies on unwilling people dragged in to get VP how will the population ever be able to support more such content? It can't, it won't.

Then when the new zones and BSs don't end up working well what will FC do? Try to drag in people with big rewards not related to PvP? Maybe they'll just randomly warp everyone in and force them to participate so they don't look dead?

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Phoenix, it's OK not liking PvP, but denying there are a big number of people interested in it, ingame, or stating that there are no tower attacks save for weekends, or trying to dismiss the desires of the PvP community 8which i'm not quite really part of) is absurd, not as many attacks ahppen now as they did 3 years ago, but also applies to raids and all things around.

And yes, Weekends are more active on NW, but you see attacks and victories during the whole week in RK2, perhaps not during your online times?

Evidently it's not ok to not like PvP as even if you don't FC still wants you to do it. Although I said I've seen nothing happening in towers for long periods on RK2 as I have. Once a sort of side XP balance is achieved there have been many weekdays were I could be on for hours and not see a single battle take place. I do play during peak hours, it's just not that active these days. Also one or a few people attacking sites no one defends is not PvP, that's PvM. Outside of TL7 and maybe TL5 that's what happens a lot of the time.

Then if the PvP community really was so large why does PvP content need to be padded with people not looking to PvP? So they add more PvP content, great. But then it doesn't pull in many people, it's always open rather than only at set times so if only a trickle come by now and then you may be able to run in there and see no one. Some will still do Tara, towers, hope BSs run so don't go. So then what was accomplished?

Before LE was launched I heard all sorts of excited cries that more places to PvP were being added. Then LE launched and most BSs didn't run as not enough were looking to go. Can't have that FC thought so they even said they were going to up the reward in an effort to get those not looking to PvP in there. This is what I'm fearing and expect. Another dead full time set of PvP zones as there really isn't that many looking to PvP which FC will decide to "fix" by pulling in people that don't want to go.

So it's not "oh no, don't be mean, let the PvPers have a new bone to play with." I can really see FC continuing their trend which means these will effect everyone, not just those that PvP. Also at the same time those that PvP will find the other PvP content that some will still want to do even less active than it is now. Which means more complaints about how it's not working well and FC needs to do this and that to pull in people. At the same time some will get tired of the inactivity and leave. This will then leave those left in game even more screwed and people that don't want to PvP still having to go to those even more dead PvP zones to get a reward unrelated to PvP, if that's even possible at that point anymore.

[Mastablasta]

It's not that long ago there was a 100v100 pvp fight. I haven't been playing much lately due to rl, but it's within the last couple months.

[Wrangeline]

How many years ago was that when there were 100 vs 100 PvP fights? I've heard of those huge tower or Tara battles that crashed the zone too, that was ages and ages ago though. Welcome to today.

Before iPand there were some pretty big raid groups doing Pand covering only one side at a time and some big ones for S42 earlier on too. If there's the population in game and a reason to pull in tons of people PvM can do that as well. AO though has moved more towards smaller group content and the population is getting smaller all the time.

Like I said in my last post, when stuff happens doesn't actually have anything to do with the point I was trying to make. Also, it didn't happen ages and ages ago. I don't know what server you play on but on my server we had 125 vs 85 and 100 vs 100 fights when clan decided to actually take over tara and NW, before omni decided to stop playing for whatever reason. After those days, clan and omni haven't been balanced so omni stopped trying. Balance is the problem now, not peoples view on PvP in general.

If most of the people playing wanted to PvP and PvPed only about 25% of the time spent in game PvP content would be a lot more active than it is now.

Yes, that is true but I don't know why you are telling me that. I haven't stated anything about "most of the people playing wanted to PvP" and I don't know where that "25%" figure comes from either. All I can say in reply is.. yeah, if most of the people playing wanted to PvP and if they spent 25% of their time PvP'ing, PvP would be more active. Sure.

Let me condense my original point to this:

I don't think PvP is as active or inactive as it is because of how people feel about PvP in general.
I do think PvP is as active or inactive as it is because of things that are out of the individual players control. I have mentioned a tiny portion of these "things" in my last post so I'm not gonna write them again.

Now, don't get me wrong though. I don't think any of you are crazy for saying that most people by far do PvM rather than PvP these days. You are obviously correct in saying so. All I'm saying is that this one fact alone isn't direct proof of how people in general feel about PvP, it's just a symptom of other problems. I'm just trying to convince people here that the symptom is NOT the cause. If you treat the symptom as a cause, you will get no where or you will make it worse. By "it" I'm referring to PvP or the lack thereof.

Anyway, I'll shut up now. I know I talk way to much

[drakonman]

the only way to make pvp viable in this game is: free for all pvp. No more suppression gas (except in cities), no more instances...every major boss in the game should be like Tara, and get rid of the NW as is now and instead make AI cities attackable. Oh and on death there should be a penalty...like XP or something. Now that's the sort of pvp that would be fun.

Wanna grab some phatz? sure np, fight for them. That would make org's grow stronger instead of 2000 mini org's with a couple of active members. That would make clan and omni become real opposing factions. That would make you more involved, that would make you more active in the pvp scene.

Now you have all the ingredients for a successful game. Risk vs. Reward. Atm there are only rewards and no risks involved.

Sure, there's gonna be some griefing, some whining from non Pvp'ers, but i'm sure everyone would get accustomed to it. Ofc first of all there needs to be some serious change in the balance act beforehand.

[XenonDe]

Plenty of people would leave then. Especially new players trying to get a hold of the game while repeatedly slaughtered by higher levels. As much fun as more pvp would be, I don't think that's a good idea anymore.

---

I kinda like the new heads. Some details i find disturbing r weird but it's nothing you can't get accustomed too and Hello? Look how big heads ARE ingame. You People won't even see those details then. But if you're all going to quit over that, I'd be happy to take your stuff.

[Tanisthonus]

the only way to make pvp viable in this game is: free for all pvp. No more suppression gas (except in cities), no more instances...every major boss in the game should be like Tara, and get rid of the NW as is now and instead make AI cities attackable. Oh and on death there should be a penalty...like XP or something. Now that's the sort of pvp that would be fun.

What about those of us that don't want to PVP? Those of us that have more fun working with other people, rather than against? There needs to be a balance, you can't have the game entirely based around one or the other

[PhoenixOfAges]

It's not that long ago there was a 100v100 pvp fight. I haven't been playing much lately due to rl, but it's within the last couple months.

I think you may have been counting PF map dots and not actual chars. About half or more of the dots on screen can be pet prof pets or social pets. Seen that at Tara, you look at your group and see a big mess of dots. Although there actually was only maybe twenty or less people there, the rest were all the pets and social pets. Some may also have been spectators such as those watching the last Omni TL7 tower base go down on RK2 again a ways back, which also may have had pets in tow.

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Like I said in my last post, when stuff happens doesn't actually have anything to do with the point I was trying to make.

Actually when is very important. Trying to bring up long ago no longer relevant matters to argue current day problems doesn't work.

Also, it didn't happen ages and ages ago. I don't know what server you play on but on my server we had 125 vs 85 and 100 vs 100 fights when clan decided to actually take over tara and NW, before omni decided to stop playing for whatever reason. After those days, clan and omni haven't been balanced so omni stopped trying. Balance is the problem now, not peoples view on PvP in general.

RK2.

Tara is like BSs to a certain extent. That is people not actually looking to PvP or really able to make much if any difference except by being a target for people to waste attacks on do show up to try to get loot. Although "125 vs 85 and 100 vs 100 fights" in recent days doesn't seem likely. We were getting various spawns where one or the other side just didn't show up. Even after iPand so people weren't at the Pand raid taking place at the same time anymore. When people did show up on both sides 20-30 actual people on both sides was considered a big turn out. When Clan knocked out the last Omni TL7 tower site again a ways back that was a novelty so people that didn't care for PvP went just to take part in the novelty of the matter or watch it happen.

Also as I said to Mastablasta, you may have been counting PF map dots and not actual people. Pets don't count. Spectators don't count either, neither do sided mobs.

Then it's not about game balance, it is about giving up. Once side A gives up it's all over, FC can't fix that. Like at the 150-174 BS on RK2, Omni basically gave up there maybe two years ago already. That was when they still had things like both buff sleeves and the gunship all to themselves and would be considered real nice buff items at that lvl. Some Clan even swapped sides to use those items to get stuff on. Yet there used to be times the Clan queue had some 30-40 people on it while the Ommers had problems getting even six. Now Ommers are having even more problems getting six together and the Clan queue doesn't get that large. The reason wasn't side balance, it was that one side collectively gave up.

Yes, that is true but I don't know why you are telling me that. I haven't stated anything about "most of the people playing wanted to PvP" and I don't know where that "25%" figure comes from either.

You said 70% of your motivation in doing PvM was for PvP. I just took that and made it to say that 30% of your time was doing PvP and dropped 5%. 25% of game time isn't all that much and if one is an avid PvPer it is reasonable to say they spend 25% or more of their time PvPing. Not everyone keeps lvling new alts after all, some just stick with one char. So an avid PvPer can try to spend about 100% of their game time PvPing with their char once it's "done."

From there it's a matter of your references towards those huge PvP battles which supposedly have occurred recently. I don't know if you've looked around much in game lately but our population isn't that stellar. So if 200 actual people all showed up at one place at once to do something, that would almost certainly account for a good chunk of those online these days.

So if there really was as many people looking to PvP even on rare occasions as you allege and they all spent about 25% or more game time PvPing our current PvP content would be much more active than it is. You even agreed to that. It isn't though, so it's reasonable to state that we don't have a large number of people looking to PvP in game anymore.

Let me condense my original point to this:
...

And my points are this. As people currently aren't that interested in doing PvP in game and what PvP content we have now can't get going too well if at all more at this point won't help. If anything it will just divide those that do want to do such content further. As a result all PvP content will suffer. More will get dissatisfied and more will consider leaving or just up and leave.

Secondly like BSs Means has told us these new always open PvP zones will also give VP. So as their BS fix has been to drag in the unwilling it's not a stretch at all to say they would do the same for these as well should they fail to function well as they almost certainly will if not at first then at least after the initial interest has worn off. With VP only really gained through such PvP zones and as it is more of interest to those not looking to PvP these zones will affect more than just PvPers.

Another point is that a number of people on the forums were all excited about BSs before they launched LE too. Look at how that turned out.

[Wrangeline]

You said 70% of your motivation in doing PvM was for PvP. I just took that and made it to say that 30% of your time was doing PvP and dropped 5%.

Yes I said 70% of my motivation for doing PvM is the PvP it will eventually let me do. I did not say that I spend 70% of my time doing PvM or that I spend 30% of my time doing PvP. Motivation and time are two completely different words so your use of my quote makes no sense to me at all.

As for counting the number of people at PvP events. First of all, I play on RK1 and I know nothing about RK2 (what you say about PvP might be correct for RK2, I don't know, I don't play there). You can't tell me what does or does not happen on my server when you apparently don't play on it We use PvP bots where active PvPers log on and people are not allowed to dual log and pets are obviously not counted in these bots. These bots tell us exactly how many active PvP'ers are present. You don't use PvP bots on RK2? (only asking because I'm curious)

As for the rest, you are still missing my point. I wont continue to ramble on about that though as I have tried to explain it several times already. Either I succeed at explaining something or I don't. This time it didn't seem to work so I'll just leave it at that.

I do agree with you on the general sentiment that adding more PvP-on-demand-areas now would to some degree disperse the PvP crowd. Some will go to BS and some will go to this new PvP field. I'm not sure exactly what impact this will have in the long run but I do agree that it can cause problems. I guess it at least partly depends on how the new PvP area is designed both in terms of how it works and what it offers.

What I'm about to say is a bit "out of left field" and many will probably disagree with it but I personally think it would be cool if FC added this new open PvP area, find a way to balance it in some way or another so that it wont be one side camping the other and then delete BS completely. I'm not sure but I think I would like this because I think open PvP is "good" PvP and BS-PvP is.. "bleh". It's convenient but still "bleh"

[Technogen]

Secondly like BSs Means has told us these new always open PvP zones will also give VP. So as their BS fix has been to drag in the unwilling it's not a stretch at all to say they would do the same for these as well should they fail to function well as they almost certainly will if not at first then at least after the initial interest has worn off. With VP only really gained through such PvP zones and as it is more of interest to those not looking to PvP these zones will affect more than just PvPers.

Another point is that a number of people on the forums were all excited about BSs before they launched LE too. Look at how that turned out.

People don't do PvP because it's boring and repetitive, the PvP climate hasn't changed at all for the last 8 years almost. Sure there's been a little change here a little there, but over all its just been "shoot that guy, shoot that guy, rez/rebuff do it all over again."

As such, that's partly why BS doesn't run 24/7, people have done it too much at. Such is why a new open PvP PF would actually reinvigorate the BS. With other easily done options for players to focus on they wouldn't be "tired" of the BS. Would it run 24/7 again, not likely even with a 10 fold population boost.

As for your last point, people were excited bout the BS after it launched as well, they are just tired of doing the same thing over and over again.

I am sure that even with the new zone provided players will still actively do BS as now they will do it because they enjoy it.

[JenShay]

1. Tara can crash completely because there are so many people there.

You do realise that is not a good example?
A good quantity, if not most, of that are PvMers, tagging along for the points and loot.
Again, don't care if it is Red or Blue that wins. Just want the loot to carry on with the PvM playing.

People don't do PvP because it's boring and repetitive, the ...
As such, that's partly why BS doesn't run 24/7, people have done it too much at. Such is ...

I disagree with this. Counter Strike Source is still very much active and the most played map is dust 2, over and over again. Very little changes but those "killers" get their fix.

[Technogen]

I disagree with this. Counter Strike Source is still very much active and the most played map is dust 2, over and over again. Very little changes but those "killers" get their fix.

That's partly a mechanics driving force for CS and Dust2. Example of that is most people play CS not CS:S which has new maps and mechanics.

Building examples in AO is better for the discussion, there's very little to no content in AO that someone would want to do 24/7. There is content players NEED to do but not one that players WANT to do.

CS, is mentally engaging, players have to focus on what they are doing so they dont type this sentence 5 times like I have. ... Seriously you get where i'm going with this I'm just going to stop typing now because I'm putting 0 effort into typing the rest of this.