Friday with Means - September 3rd, 2010 - Battlestation changes

[Armus]

I know... I'm a former national champion in Ju-jutsu, so I know very well how much training does..

Congrats! I'm a former national champion marksman. I hope you were twice as good or more as a noobcake out of the street. I know I was.

Not sure that either proves anything though!

However.. this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oHFLfe9zaU

A said earlier a total offset of maybe 20% would be a significant offset, and far more than what people already raid months to achieve from some items.

20% overall advantage for a maxed toon vs a mediocre one? If that's what you mean I am pretty sure noone will spend the extra few hundred hours for something that won't really make a difference. Because you see being 20% stronger won't mean that you will win significantly more often. Just that you will win slightly more than joe sixpack.

So yea.. 20% better overall, if that's what you truly mean would definitely kill any effort ppl are putting into this game and it would be a sad way to end the game.

[Armus]

Noobius76.... just got.... PWND! Wow.. just.. wow... *builds a small shrine to Mekh*

In your dreams, whoever you may be.

Also...

I agree with Mekh, a 20% ofset would be pleanty, sure one of the main things i love with AO is that you can equip level 200 gear at level 60 if you work for it..

So you don't agree with mekh then. 200 sps @ 60 or level 200 engi pet at the same level will all be history if ppl like Mekh gets their way. Sorry, all pets level locked, all items level locked, all nanos level locked, all imps level locked.

You will all be the same from now on and have an equal ammount of fun!

Well actually.. meh i like both ways.. A change would be nice for its own reason but keeping things as they are would be equally nice in my book... abit conflicted... -.^

All this hate towards what twinkers/pvpers percieve to be the good part of the game comes from ppl who can't handle that their pvm setup toons aren't doing well vs pure pvp setups.

FC has made it so that you can customize our toons to be the best in certain areas, but not without making sacrifices. That goes for everyone. Just make a pvp toon yourself if you want to be good at pvp is my message to all those that wish to nerf twinks!

[Mekh]

20% overall advantage for a maxed toon vs a mediocre one? If that's what you mean I am pretty sure noone will spend the extra few hundred hours for something that won't really make a difference.

RBP, iGoC's, BoC... Nuff said...

Because you see being 20% stronger won't mean that you will win significantly more often. Just that you will win slightly more than joe sixpack.

Only true if you disregard skill of the player.

[Seinstheorie]

Talking about skill blahblah:
Somehow putting on the right gear for whatever purpose requires knowledge and skill in AO.
So basically only the amount of creds, time and ingame possibilities (support for getting nodrops, quests and so on) makes a difference between two players of same "skilllevel"

edit: forgot to say: same old discussion about pvm vs. pvp... some guys like this, some guys like that, some like both, some like none.

[Animistic]

The people talking about randomly making equip count less % are playing the wrong game. Try perhaps Guild Wars instead since AO's gear/skill system isnt obviously what you are seeking.

We got enough burger games for Joe Regulars out there where everyone can with minimal effort feel successfull in everything they do. AO has always been hardcore, and the day they take that away from it, it will certainly die.

The only thing about complaints of those people that i can understand is, that their non-twinks get too hardly rolled in current BS, and that AI armor and IGocs are too much effort for them to farm to be competetive against those who have more intrest in pvp.

Solution isnt to break the TL5 scene though with very random seeming and stupid widening of the level range that most with TL5 twinks understand why its a bad idea (unlike which seems to be the case with the non-tl5 pvpers who to it wouldnt even really matter to that much). And details as why it is a bad idea, have been talked about in nearly almost 30 pages already plenty so wont repeat those again.

Maybe the solution could be something more along the line of what S10 is, which is to bring more bots to TL5s and below, so more people can be competitive. But even that wasnt good enough, since even there, twinks dominated the loot. So FC had to make it just easy repetitive phats farm with the randomly dropping relays instead of fixing the smurf issue in some other ways than just making it a grind everyone can access. The old version was lot more fun(if not counting in smurf soloing) and challenging, given that it was quite elitist still.

So perhaps S7 could be a place where more bots drop to the big crowd, some sort of boss encounter in end that requires like beast of old times or the TL7 APFs, big raidforce, and then bunch of bots and new nice loot to be shared with the crowd, so even the not-so-twinked can get their share of good bots be it by points or by raffle. Just an idea.

[PhoenixOfAges]

So perhaps S7 could be a place where more bots drop to the big crowd, some sort of boss encounter in end that requires like beast of old times or the TL7 APFs, big raidforce, and then bunch of bots and new nice loot to be shared with the crowd, so even the not-so-twinked can get their share of good bots be it by points or by raffle. Just an idea.

When FC spoke of the upcoming level 150-200 APF (S7) it was stated to be a team instanced zone with daily like missions to do inside. So I'd expect it to be more along the lines of team Dark Ruins although perhaps bigger rather than the current APFs or past raid zones.

Then as we have already seen they're moving away from big open stuff that will require a lot of people and takes a long time. Instead they're going with smaller faster content that don't require a lot of people. As an added note I understand they intend on adjusting the old APFs. I think to make them more accessible to a wider level range but can't remember for certain.

[Theonora]

Just a mild-mannered observation here, but my biggest problem on the items vs. skill argument is the lack of acknowledgment that the very difficult twinking IS a skill in and of itself. The one twink I've finished, and not even close to a top notch one, was a tremendous amount of effort, input from actual experts on the subject, and careful juggling of what things to put on in what order -- and it took me quite a while to do it (and even then, I made some seriously dumb mistakes). Its easy to toss it off as "Oh whatever, just farm some items" and not acknowledge the wealth of information and know-how required to actually do it in the first place.

[borriss]

I think some of the charm with AO is that you can push the limits and use stuff that others your level can't because they aren't used to twinking or they can't be arsed or whatnot... It's always fun to see how far it can be pushed

[Armus]

.

We got enough burger games for Joe Regulars out there where everyone can with minimal effort feel successfull in everything they do. AO has always been hardcore, and the day they take that away from it, it will certainly die.

Exactly. AO's strength is the character creation. It's all in how you can customize your char. Without that, as you say AO is a dead animal.

[Armus]

I think some of the charm with AO is that you can push the limits and use stuff that others your level can't because they aren't used to twinking or they can't be arsed or whatnot... It's always fun to see how far it can be pushed

Exactly! Coming up with an idea, making preparations, executing the setup and then playing it in the optimum way. Often to counter other setups.

THAT is the heart of AO.

[Lusos101]

Exactly! Coming up with an idea, making preparations, executing the setup and then playing it in the optimum way. Often to counter other setups.

THAT is the heart of AO.

Yes it is. And it is the thing that keeps it alive, because this game has so many flaws that it cant compete with mainstream games. That and its scifi settings are what brings in and keeps most people playing it. But it needs a big enough playerbase to keep going. And it is loosing that playerbase. Why?

[NoGoal]

FC has made it so that you can customize our toons to be the best in certain areas, but not without making sacrifices. That goes for everyone. Just make a pvp toon yourself if you want to be good at pvp is my message to all those that wish to nerf twinks!

If only that was true.. but that's not the problem in this case. The problem is that a non-twink will have crappy skills because he can't any decent gear without spending hours farming (be it items, VP or credits). If a leveling toon had the same gear as a twinked one but at a lower QL, it would be way better. There would still be a difference but not as huge as it is now.

[Armus]

If only that was true.. but that's not the problem in this case. The problem is that a non-twink will have crappy skills because he can't any decent gear without spending hours farming (be it items, VP or credits)..

If you want to drive a caddilac you need to work for it.

It's not like the twinks out there made themselves. Ppl went out and did the stuff needed to get the best of the best.

If you want a game where effort doesnt count then AO clearly isn't the game for you. The good news though is that there are plenty of other games where you can play successfully without sinking loads of time into it.

Remove the twinkability from and it's just not AO anymore. Just a really ugly and buggy version of other online games.

If a leveling toon had the same gear as a twinked one but at a lower QL, it would be way better. There would still be a difference but not as huge as it is now.

Actually lowbie lead bots cost about a quarter now of what they did when I started twinking around 2006. You can make a full co set ql 181 ish for around 140m. That's less than a fifth of what a maxed twink would spend on a maxed cs set. And yeah, you get quite a bit of skills for the money at the lowbie level.

So.. it's already been made several times faster/easier to farm armour and such.

[NoGoal]

Farming doesn't require any effort, it's just boring and it has nothing to do with twinking. I have nothing with a bit of farming to get the best of the best but it definitely shouldn't be the only way to get any decent gear.

[Ikarus]

200 sps @ 60 or level 200 engi pet at the same level will all be history if ppl like Mekh gets their way.

I actually don't see that point in his argumentation. In my eyes twinking is actually a huge part of the "skill" needed to play AO. I actually favor it far more than simply having the time and nerves to farm certain more or less trivial (!) mobs over and over again. This is, however, mostly immanent in SL dynas. You can really waste time there without any gain, whereas other places like the team instances are guaranteed to give you at least something for your time - and are quite more fun.

To get back to the example you would see a ql 160 vs ql 200 equipped on the toons, not a 200 sps vs 200 cater. This is something that the high levels miss. You can actually equip everything in the topmost ql, there's no wiggling space for creative minds, be it Symbs or Equipment.

[Groumfjr]

I don't understand why people get mad about twink.

What is the problem? You were wtfpawned by a guy who spent days even weeks sometimes to build a toon and you cry because your regular decent casual toon can't compete with?

Maybe it's time to wake up, it's not hello kitty online here.

It's not like twinking a secret art so why instead of crying against twink you do not make one?

Maybe because you are too lazzy and just want to own everybody with your casual toon.

You want pvp only based on skill? Go play CS or another FPS.

Twinking is why I'm still playing AO and I know it's the case for many people.

Who force you to pvp anyway?

I can't see any decent pvper who could think twinking must be nerfed.

[NoGoal]

You are right. Let's keep our shiny twinks rot in a BY. That's so much better.

Please don't find ways to improve non-twinked chars, PvP action might happen.

[Groumfjr]

I prefer letting my twink rotting in a BY rather than making pvp be like a giant shifumi because some lazzy people do not want to work on their toon.

My pleasure is to make twink, not only pvp but also pvm one. And when you cross a new player and when he see what you can do with not that much work, most of them want to try too and think AO is great because of that.

Making twink be 20% more efficient than the common vanillia toon will just kill the fun and transform AO in a big Farmville game.

Making lazzy people close to twink won't improve pvp, it will just kill AO.

[JustinSane4]

I understand where Mekh and company are coming from, but I doubt that in most cases new players are leaving because of BS twinks. I'd think it more likely they leave because the initial start-up curve is so brutal. If all BS ran sem-consistently, then with the BS daily missions anyone could with minimal time investment farm a level appropriate set of ofab.

It's not losing to the monster PvP toons that is the problem, it's seeing no way to ever reach that level. I remember quite clearly when 6m for a yalm seemed like an insurmountable sum - spent weeks farming Abmouth for rings to afford it. I just wanted some clear path to get to where the established players were, not to be equal (or close to it) already. Really we just need some way for beginning toons to make a decent income and get decent gear on their way to S10, where you can make enough money for competitive equipment. I think the BS range changes, combined with the BS daily missions, could go a long way toward the decent gear part of that equation. Now new toons just need a viable way to make money before level 150.

[Means]

I will be posting on the level range changes tomorrow. They will have changed from the version from the start of this thread based on conversations with PvPers at the event this wekend.