Friday with Means - September 3rd, 2010 - Battlestation changes

[Mekh]

Where on earth do any of you get the idea that I have anything against twinking???

I don't.. I love it and it is one of THE big things that sets AO apart from other games.


Go back and read my posts again if you don't believe me, if you even read it the first time that is.

What I'm saying is that the levels that can be twinked to is far too big these days, leaving the gap between an old player with items and credits hoarded together over several years are now bigger than ever before...

Remember that the gap between a twink and a new player is today MUCH bigger than when YOU started playing.

Then you say they can just go out there and do a little work...
Please remember that to get to the point you are they would have to farm for as long as you have.

No one in their right mind can expect (m)any players to have to farm for years to become competitive in PvP and actually have some fun.

At the same time that people can twink to higher levels than ever before in AO, that also means that newer players have to farm more items at higher levels than ever before, WITHOUT having a main toon to get the stuff.


Lemme say it again... I do NOT mind twinking whatsoever...
I mind the huge gap there is between a decently geared levelling new player, and an old toon that have been able to hoarde every possible twink item together for years, including but not limited to lya's stuff, explosif's, Penumbra quest items, inferno ring, research thingies and whatnot an old player can use to twink their level 1 toons today, that they could NOT back when YOU started the game.

For my sake they could make twinking even harder by requiring you to be able to resolve differential equations while fighting a dyna or whatever, but.... do not expect people to stay in AO if it requires people to hang around for years before they can play the game competitively at any given level.

[Rktim]

I will be posting on the level range changes tomorrow. They will have changed from the version from the start of this thread based on conversations with PvPers at the event this wekend.

Wow only took you 579posts

Just kidding Means you know i <3 you ^^

[Cyberleet]

Yeah, it's by far the best MMO ever!

The complexity, the advanced charracter-customation, the game-mechanics and the sci-fi world.

Yes it is. And it is the thing that keeps it alive, because this game has so many flaws that it cant compete with mainstream games. That and its scifi settings are what brings in and keeps most people playing it. But it needs a big enough playerbase to keep going. And it is loosing that playerbase. Why?

1: It needs a facelift! The game looks it's age

2: We need a rebalance, new content and new itemization in correspondance with the balance.

3: Rewrite of the island, please. The game could advance a bit smoother from the player-perspective. They loose a lot on that island/start of the game.

Probably being less grindy, specially on the xp/research would help...

I will be posting on the level range changes tomorrow. They will have changed from the version from the start of this thread based on conversations with PvPers at the event this wekend.

Thats great! It seemed a bit odd as for the state of today.

[Animistic]

I understand where Mekh and company are coming from, but I doubt that in most cases new players are leaving because of BS twinks. I'd think it more likely they leave because the initial start-up curve is so brutal. If all BS ran sem-consistently, then with the BS daily missions anyone could with minimal time investment farm a level appropriate set of ofab.

It's not losing to the monster PvP toons that is the problem, it's seeing no way to ever reach that level. I remember quite clearly when 6m for a yalm seemed like an insurmountable sum - spent weeks farming Abmouth for rings to afford it. I just wanted some clear path to get to where the established players were, not to be equal (or close to it) already. Really we just need some way for beginning toons to make a decent income and get decent gear on their way to S10, where you can make enough money for competitive equipment. I think the BS range changes, combined with the BS daily missions, could go a long way toward the decent gear part of that equation. Now new toons just need a viable way to make money before level 150.

Perhaps Unique level dependant dailies could be added to help newbie players that you could do only once when reaching certain titlelevel, like TL2, TL3 and TL4 special dailies. Could be something very simple just with point of rewarding some credits then so the player can continue. Like 2mil at TL2, 4mil TL3, 8mil TL4 and the TL4 could perhaps be a quest to go to Sector 10 to loot a 4mil no drop item, so it would guide the newbies how to make easy credits then so they could become selfsufficient.

Also bump for some sort of VP alternative to BS for pure PVMers. Not be as great or as grindable, but something still that could be an option, maybe Sec7 Bossloot VP item. Or maybe the S10 No Drops could be also exchanged to VP, currently they are 4mil or 10 tokens, why not also option for 400 vp ?

I will be posting on the level range changes tomorrow. They will have changed from the version from the start of this thread based on conversations with PvPers at the event this wekend.

Eagerly waiting what it will be.

[nitr0]

hope it will be like 150-189 190-220 or sth... and nothing that will make no sense at all =)

[Lheann]

I will be posting on the level range changes tomorrow. They will have changed from the version from the start of this thread based on conversations with PvPers at the event this wekend.

I look forward to hearing about these range changes. I however do hope you meant that after further discussion with the PVP crowd present at the weekend event and the input from this thread that the team has made changes to the level ranges.

[PhoenixOfAges]

Well Means was psyched about Mastablasta being there so maybe there's a 220 only BS and new PvP PF while all the others were scrapped. Maybe all the tower fields will be QL 200+ now too.

We'll just have to wait and see what they've come up with. Then once that's in place wait and see how that pans out. I'd imagine it'll be a few months or so before enough people have made new BS only chars for the new level ranges. Then a good month or more to see if people stick with it so it'll be some time before we can really see if the changes, whatever they are, were a good idea or not.

[Armus]

To get back to the example you would see a ql 160 vs ql 200 equipped on the toons, not a 200 sps vs 200 cater. This is something that the high levels miss. You can actually equip everything in the topmost ql, there's no wiggling space for creative minds, be it Symbs or Equipment.

While I believe that statement isn't 100% correct, I think there are still a few class/breed combinations where full 300 alphas isn't doable just yet, I think you are right in general.

You may still make certain choices though that may make your character very effective in some situations and much less in others.

Take a soldier for instance. You may choose a pure smg setup over assault rifle with all the +dmg you can find. Your pvm dmg will probably be something like 40% higher than that of a pvp setup assault rifle soldier.
You won't however stand a chance to hit most classes with good defence very well in pvp due to your low attack rating.

The same example can be made for many classes. Not just in a pvm vs pvp setup scenario but within pvp as well. A bow MP may be more effective than a shield mp in some situations and the other way around. An nr2 agent may be more effective than a non nr agent in other situations.

Sometimes ppl come up with new ideas that are really effective. So yes there is choice at tl7 still. Although the chance of being first with something is very unlikely at this stage. Everything has already been done. But that's normal for a game this old.

[Armus]

Where on earth do any of you get the idea that I have anything against twinking??? .

Oh Idk.. probably because the suggestion you made about limiting the advantage a twink would have over an average toon to 10-25%.
In other words too little to make a real difference.
It would be too little for ppl to spend 50x more time on their toons than joe sixpack did for a 10-15% advantage.

To sum it up your idea kills the point of twinking and that's why I "suspect" that you are against twinking.

I don't.. I love it and it is one of THE big things that sets AO apart from other games..

If you love it you wouldn't want to make it pointless. It's that simple. Although it certainly seems you don't understand that.

What I'm saying is that the levels that can be twinked to is far too big these days, leaving the gap between an old player with items and credits hoarded together over several years are now bigger than ever before...

Remember that the gap between a twink and a new player is today MUCH bigger than when YOU started playing..

The difference between a fully twinked toon and one in a medsuit is certainly bigger. But I the difference between fully twinked toon and a decent one is much smaller.

Why? For many reasons.

1. Ofab armour. Anyone can get good armour. Much quicker than farming an AI set.

2. AI armour is cheaper. AI leadbots have never been cheaper to get. Why? Anyone can have a farm city now for about 1/10th of what they cost only 2 years ago. Then there is also s10 and s42 that adds tons of cheap leadbots.

3. Leveling is much faster than they were when I started. AI xp is now affected by +xp items, pen/inf missions add tons of xp/sk, arid gives awesome axp, then there are dailies etc etc.

4. Perk reset timers are now 2 hours instead of 24 hours. And you get a free total reset every 48 hours. When I started most ppl dreaded the resets. Only the hard core twinkers would reset back and forth for a month to get the optimum ip savings and in the end the ultimate setup. Joe sixpack never did. But today he can do it all within a few hours.

5. New twink items.. ofab hud, lox mems, lox belts, alba bracers, db bracers, ofab armour, miy armou etc etc. These items are easily obtained except possibly the alba bracer and they make twinking a breeze compared to what it used to be.

All these factors have made it much, MUCH easier, and faster, to get a good setup very quickly compared to what it used to be.

FC did all this since I started playing with the intent to make things easier for the casual crowd to have an easier time vs the hard core twinks.
So no, the gap didn't widen at all. It closed considerably.

Then you say they can just go out there and do a little work...
Please remember that to get to the point you are they would have to farm for as long as you have...

Actually as I already demonstrated above that's not the case at all. Most of my toons are lowbie twinks. Farming ai armour inside s10 is so much faster than city raids it's silly. So no, that's not true at all.

No one in their right mind can expect (m)any players to have to farm for years to become competitive in PvP and actually have some fun.

Which is why you don't have to do that any more. You only have to farm for a long time to be best of the best. And getting end game gear/setup is also amazingly easy compared to what it used to be. Take ai 30 alone for example. Arid has reduced that grind by a factor of at least 5.

At the same time that people can twink to higher levels than ever before in AO, that also means that newer players have to farm more items at higher levels than ever before, WITHOUT having a main toon to get the stuff..

Getting a toon to 220 is so much faster that it makes some old schoolers want to cry. Same for ai30 as I said. As for the farming stuff for twinks. I already proved that it's many times easier for newbies now than it was for us oldtimers.

Lemme say it again... I do NOT mind twinking whatsoever...
I mind the huge gap there is between a decently geared levelling new player, and an old toon that have been able to hoarde every possible twink item together for years, including but not limited to lya's stuff, explosif's, Penumbra quest items, inferno ring, research thingies and whatnot an old player can use to twink their level 1 toons today, that they could NOT back when YOU started the game...

Let's dissect this part thoroughly as there is a lot of nonsense here.

The research huds cost 200 vp. You can buy them all if you win bs twice at tl5. Once at tl7. In other words they are available to anyone that has 30 minutes to spare.

Lya stuff are now obsolete except for the shoulderpads which are nice. But they are not something that will alleviate twinks to an unreachable level.

The pen quest nanos are nothing special now that gth is nerfed. Andby the way. Are you saying that doing the pen quest (which is level locked to 130 afaik) is beyond the scope of joe sixpack?

The pure novictum ring. Yes that's a bloody nice item right there! I've never had the energy to get one myself for any of my twinks. But that doesn't mean I think that the ones that spend time doing all the progression quests should be robbed of the fruits of their immense efforts. On the contrary I applaude them. I wonder why you can't.

Explosif pillows. Ah.. these are nice! I personally didn't have access to these while twinking most of my toons until we decided to buy a pair as an org. I used to borrow them for a long time before that. And guess what, it won't hurt todays newbies to do just the same if they can't afford to buy them!

So to sum that part up most of the stuff you mentioned is available to casual players just as well as the hard core twinkers. So your arguing there makes no sense at all I'm afraid.

For my sake they could make twinking even harder by requiring you to be able to resolve differential equations while fighting a dyna or whatever, but.... do not expect people to stay in AO if it requires people to hang around for years before they can play the game competitively at any given level.

I do agree on a general level that AO is hard core and that if it were cuter and easier it could attract more players. Much in the same way that Yahtzee attracts much more players than Chess does. But does that mean that we think that chess should be remade to be mroe similar to Yahtzee? I know I don't.

Anyhow.. let's get one thing straight. Pvm has never been easier. Toons in half arsed setups can do things top twinked toons could only dream of 5 years ago.

To sum it up the road to a decen/good setup has never been wider and never been faster. Making an end game toon still requires alot of work, but it is also much faster than it used to be.

The solution to ao's dvindling population isn't to piss off the hard core crowd that loves AO for what it is.
The solution is to get the bloody engine out the door! After that, with a hopefully much invigorated playerbase steps can be taken to balance things with the dynamics in THAT situation.

Major changes now are just going to piss old players off. This thread and all the fierce discussions in org chats, warbots and ooc is evidence of that.

Thanx for reading my wall of text

[Armus]

hope it will be like 150-189 190-220 or sth... and nothing that will make no sense at all =)

I don't want to sound too mean. But how fun do you think it will be for you to be teaming with a buch of 190's in bs if the other side has mostly 220's?

Or the other way around.. How much fun is it to insta kill 190's with your 220?

I know I won't enjoy it. Maybe you will.

[Mekh]

Well... I guess we just disagree then...

I stand by my viewpoints and I basically also disagree with most of your wall of text.

Lot's of your redeeming points goes for end-game, not for levelling toons that have more than enough to do with learning the game and how to go about in it...

While doing that they're pretty much excluded from having any fun experiences with PvP, and then the PvP crowd whines about not having not enough people to fight with... How can many of you even be surprised at that? I don't get it.


Anyways... I'm done with this subject... I've put forth my point and I haven't seen anything that (from my point of view) really says much else "I want to be able to keep stomping newbies without need to play my toon well, I just want to be able to gear up and then rofl-stomp them"

That may not be the case, but I really can'tt bend my brain in a way that I can see it otherwise.

Anyways, whatever happens, it only hurts me in the way that I think it costs us a lot of potential players/subs in AO.

[Surm]

I would have to disagree with Mekh as well. It is easier to level, gear up and be competitive in less time than ever before. If new players cant handle the couple of months of playing time to learn what theyre supposed to be doing, apply it appropriately, spend less time complaining about old twinks who have played for years, and try to understand how those people got to that point and how they too could reach it, they are another example of the new generation of instant gratification kids.

[RedWatr]

I will be posting on the level range changes tomorrow. They will have changed from the version from the start of this thread based on conversations with PvPers at the event this wekend.

so, what you're saying is. our twinks futures are Dependant upon those (I'm guessing VERY few pvp'rs) who could afford tickets to Oslo. awesome.

[erozc]

On twinking, effort required, and relative rewards:

Sure, twinking is what makes AO really unique. And of course there should be a noteworthy advantage to putting time and effort into maxing out your toon. I am all for it.

I do not agree that a super twinked say, level 60 should be just 25% more powerful than one with some Miys and store bought implants. It doesn't work that way.

What I do think is wrong, is that with the exception of very few professions, non-twinks or in most cases decently equipped PvM toons can barely contribute at all. The action becomes a Steven Seagal movie where hordes of people (being leveling/pvm) can rush the hero (pvp twink) and there is no real danger to the hero who effortlessly dispatches every opponent in sequence. This is because the opponents either can't dent the hero at all, their damage is instantly mitigated or they are dealt with instantly.

Case in point: Say, a trio of decent PvM leveling people at TL5, an engie, keeper and enf attack a pvp twinked advy. Now, the engie can do two things, one of which is jack, the other using nano drain mines but being mostly clueless about PvP is no threat at all to the advy. The keeper might land some regular hits but will not perk the advy. The enf is probably the biggest threat here, though even if he could perk the adv the threat would still not be major. So, the hero here can whittle away all the opponents one by one, and evade, heal and absorb all the damage the opponents can muster, even being completely nano drained once would not be an unsurmountable barrier.

Some professions do have better options naturally in PvP that instantly make them some sort of a threat, such as NTs, traders and agents due to nukes, drains and AS. However, all these three professions are quite fast to dispatch for any PvP twink (bar maybe docs) unless they have good equip.

Then again, if the opponent in the first situation was a twinked PvP soldier, things could go very differently, but this required knowledge of the PvP toolset that people just seem to lack. I mean, the engie in question would have to have enough of a clue to use NSD properly, know that he can use snare mines to keep the opponent in place, have refreshing special blockers running, and root grafts would not hurt either. I see agents in TL5 BS that don't use any false profession at all. NTs without LE nukes and NS. The list goes on.

The point is, lack of knowledge of leveling and pvm toons about pvp really limits their effectiveness as well. It required mental adaptation, knowledge about what your opponents can do and above all what your own toon can do. Most leveling and PvM toons have something, even if just one tool that they can use to survive or make some sort of offensive difference. Many don't use them all.

[Warhead]

hope it will be like 150-189 190-220 or sth... and nothing that will make no sense at all =)

190-220 is exactly what doesnt make any sense at all. Seriously, are you joking or are you really THAT disconnected from reality?

[Lusos101]

Mebe becuase @ lowre levuls teh ubartwenks wtfpwn any noobypvper wannabes so hard tehy dont want no moar peyveypey no moar?

Honestly, I have seen many noobs trying to participate in NW and duels and getting owned so hard they dont want to do it again.


And Noobius bs about how easy it is to blablabla. Its easy for veterans who can buy everything, from lootrights to levels. Leveling @ low levels is so fast it is impossible for a new player to equip the bare essentials while leveling. And all the good stuff is still not available to them. A piece of combined may be dirt cheap compared to some years ago. The difference is that it was hard to acquire for everybody. Now it is very easy to get by veterans. Noobs are still in the dark. Farming bots in S10 may be easy when you have a dedicated GA fixer to farm generals. But who has one? Noobs will have to blitz missions for HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of hours to buy one piece they will outgrhow in a fraction of the time.

This game as become a paradise for wealthy and LAZY veterans who dont want to play the game anymore. They dont want to have a challenge everytime they log on. They want to use their overpowered toons to farm everything they need to make more overpowered toons to farm epeen. They are entitled to everything and they want it. Even if it kills the game. And if anyone (gamedevelopers, other veterand or noobs like me, doesnt matter, we are all the same for them) dares to suggest something that means some more work for them or some loss of their grotesque advantages they make huge whine threads that never end, or the next FWM (whatever comes first).


Today I have some delicious cornbread and prosciutto, where is the whine?

[Tazalanche]

This thread has been going on for 30 pages in 2 weeks & the flame monkeys are still throwing fecal matter at each other.

Come on guys. Use CONSTRUCTIVE criticism & stop with the childish name calling because someone does not share your opinion.

[Aiken]

This thread has been going on for 30 pages in 2 weeks & the flame monkeys are still throwing fecal matter at each other.

Come on guys. Use CONSTRUCTIVE criticism & stop with the childish name calling because someone does not share your opinion.

Almost sure that would cut the posting population by ~90% on these forums....

[Mekh]

...snip...

Exactly!

[Autohead]

This game as become a paradise for wealthy and LAZY veterans who dont want to play the game anymore. They dont want to have a challenge everytime they log on. They want to use their overpowered toons to farm everything they need to make more overpowered toons to farm epeen. They are entitled to everything and they want it. Even if it kills the game. And if anyone (gamedevelopers, other veterand or noobs like me, doesnt matter, we are all the same for them) dares to suggest something that means some more work for them or some loss of their grotesque advantages they make huge whine threads that never end, or the next FWM (whatever comes first).

Sadly...this is probably the greatest summary of what our game is now that I have ever read.