Friday with Means - November 12th, 2010 - Changes large and small

[LyrLazarus]

Wanted to add a comment on the social armor... don't!


What the hell are you thinking FunCom, you are removing all status symbols in this game!

If status symbols are so important to you, what if whenever you wear any of this "replica" equipment, some sort of effect appears on you that is visible to other players but unobtrusive?

Say, for example, when you are wearing any piece of "replica" equipment at all, a small glowing green ball appears above your shoulder, or something like that. The effect might even look kind of cool in its own right, and it would make it very obvious that they hadn't "earned" at least one of the pieces of social they are wearing. Nevertheless, they still get to look cool and some people like social armor because it looks cool, rather than as a status symbol.

[lyledesol]

Darki's level 1 wears full Beast armor.. That's quite an achievement by anyone's standard.. I'd say that's a Status Symbol and a unique one at that..

Achieving things like that in AO (hard things) is what makes the game so special to a lot of us.. It's a unique game.. There's no other MMO like it..

[LyrLazarus]

Darki's level 1 wears full Beast armor.. That's quite an achievement by anyone's standard.. I'd say that's a Status Symbol and a unique one at that..

Achieving things like that in AO (hard things) is what makes the game so special to a lot of us.. It's a unique game.. There's no other MMO like it..

Which is why I suggested making it so that people that buy these "status symbols" are differentiated from people that get them through the standard route. Do you agree with my proposal or not?

[PhoenixOfAges]

Darki's level 1 wears full Beast armor.. That's quite an achievement by anyone's standard.. I'd say that's a Status Symbol and a unique one at that..

Achieving things like that in AO (hard things) is what makes the game so special to a lot of us.. It's a unique game.. There's no other MMO like it..

It's not really too much of an achievement though, it just means that person has greater resources available to him/her than likely most others would. With proper assistance getting a level one from where they started out in AO to the corpse of the Beast would be more time consuming than it would be difficult.

It's sort of like saying someone really achieved something in getting a char to lvl X when all they did was use OST and kite teams. That person didn't do any work with that char, may have done it with other chars or may have just used the assistance of others but what was done by the char in question was not anything to be impressed by.

[lyledesol]

I was commenting on one example of an achievement.. Something someone in AO is proud of.. Something that perhaps motivates other players to even greater achievements.. It doesn't matter that it was one person, an org or a whole faction that made the achievement.. I'm sure everyone involved is just as proud of it..


The question is, does FC's plan to sell copies of unique armor sets for $RL diminish Darki's sense of achievement, at the moment he's got the only level 1 with it, tomorrow there could be 100's...

One of my achievements is that every one of my toons/twinks over level 100 has maxed token boards (1k or 2.5k).. Achieved through hard work earning tokens in game.. Same question applies.. does FC's plan to sell tokens for $RL diminish my sense of achievement.. Imo, yes it does...


AO's a great game and can be hard going. It's complicated nature and open gameplay allows everyone to judge their own worth by the goals they set and achieve.. It's all very subjective though, personally, I'm easily pleased

[LyrLazarus]

One of my achievements is that every one of my toons/twinks over level 100 has maxed token boards (1k or 2.5k).. Achieved through hard work earning tokens in game.. Same question applies.. does FC's plan to sell tokens for $RL diminish my sense of achievement.. Imo, yes it does...

I'm just curious why it would diminish your sense of achievement though? YOU know how hard you worked to get all those tokens. If you want, you can tell EVERYONE ELSE how hard you worked to get those tokens too, and they would have no reason to doubt you. If your sense of achievement doesn't come from yourself and it doesn't come from the way other people see you, where does it come from?

I respect your opinion, I'd just like to know the reasoning behind it.

Edit: Metaphor:

If you ran a marathon coast to coast across the entire United States, would it diminish your sense of achievement if later 500 people each paid for a private jet to fly them from one coast to the other?

[Ichu]

HOWEVER, what you could do instead is sell something similar to Experience Constructs but instead it greatly increases how many victory points you win in BS, either as a percentage of the amount won or a static + to all BS matches. This would ensure that no one will completely stop doing BS and would therefore not decrease BS's downtime as much. This is also more palatable to many players as people would still have to work for their VP so less people will quit.

Another thing they might consider doing is selling an item that gives your character a buff nano that persists through death and lasts for a certain number of BS rounds, rather than having a time limit as we all know sometimes BS can run once or twice and then die for hours which would make you waste your buff. Having a nano that lasts for a certain number of BS rounds win or lose would probably work out rather well.

[LyrLazarus]

Another thing they might consider doing is selling an item that gives your character a buff nano that persists through death and lasts for a certain number of BS rounds, rather than having a time limit as we all know sometimes BS can run once or twice and then die for hours which would make you waste your buff. Having a nano that lasts for a certain number of BS rounds win or lose would probably work out rather well.

Yeah I wasn't going to discuss the actual mechanics of the "VP Construct" but that is how I assumed it would work.

[Saetos]

Edit: Metaphor:

If you ran a marathon coast to coast across the entire United States, would it diminish your sense of achievement if later 500 people each paid for a private jet to fly them from one coast to the other?

But see, lots of people have flown jets and planes from coast to coast. It's the rare ones that walk that way, and they get recognized.

Here, all of us got our levels the hard way; so we would feel a bit cheated if someone was able to whip out a sawbuck and get a 199 character right off the bat with one 220.

[PhoenixOfAges]

I was commenting on one example of an achievement.. Something someone in AO is proud of.. Something that perhaps motivates other players to even greater achievements.. It doesn't matter that it was one person, an org or a whole faction that made the achievement.. I'm sure everyone involved is just as proud of it..

That person didn't achieve it though, he/she was taken there through the aid of others. Then I really doubt he/she is the only one with that stuff on a level one or there about now that we have iPand. Others as I said can do it as it's more time consuming than it is difficult. It's just that most wouldn't have such resources in the form of helpers open to them or if they did wouldn't want to use them just for the sake of getting something like that for the social tab of a lvl one char.

A while after iPand was added there came to be chars of all sorts of lvls running around in Beast armour and even a BoC in their social tab. It has gotten to be common enough that I don't even stop to look as at times just about every other person has one or both on. So unless that lvl one was standing there shouting "look at me, I'm lvl one and I have Beast armour on" no one would bother to take notice or care anymore. It would only be something they themselves know and that won't change when that gear is made available as a buyable social item.

[LyrLazarus]

But see, lots of people have flown jets and planes from coast to coast. It's the rare ones that walk that way, and they get recognized.

Here, all of us got our levels the hard way; so we would feel a bit cheated if someone was able to whip out a sawbuck and get a 199 character right off the bat with one 220.

Hmm. I was referring to the sense of accomplishment you get when you achieve something. I'm using my metaphor to say that your sense of accomplishment shouldn't decrease if someone pays to get what you worked hard for, because you know how hard you worked for it and they know too (not that their knowledge matters, imo. To me, all sense of accomplishment comes from yourself. But that's a different story.)

Are you saying if you've leveled up to 200 and someone else buys a toon that level (someone that already has a 220), you'd feel less sense of accomplishment from your own toon? Or why would you feel "cheated"?

Is it just that you don't think they should have such power through paying, even though they've already got an ever more powerful toon? What does it matter to you how much power another person has if it's no more than they had previously or that you yourself could get without paying? We aren't really directly competing with each other in AO, except in PvP. But for PvP, level only matters in how long it takes to get to the PvP range. What do you care how quickly or through what method they got to that range? Now that they're there, they don't have the potential to be any more powerful than any toon you have at that level.

I proposed that you can't buy pre-leveled toons, but you can buy significantly more powerful XP Constructs and that you still have to go through a certain amount of levels without using these powerful XP Constructs. Would this way of paying for levels make you feel less cheated?

[Saetos]

I proposed that you can't buy pre-leveled toons, but you can buy significantly more powerful XP Constructs and that you still have to go through a certain amount of levels without using these powerful XP Constructs. Would this way of paying for levels make you feel less cheated?

I'd say it would. It's not instantaneous, some modicum of effort still needs to be reached. But it gets players past points of annoyance that bogs them down during the more difficult levels.

[Windguaerd]

**Points at a dead horse, which apparently has been beaten to death**

[Saetos]

**Points at a dead horse, which apparently has been beaten to death**

o.O?

[blackmesa]

I'm just curious why it would diminish your sense of achievement though? YOU know how hard you worked to get all those tokens. If you want, you can tell EVERYONE ELSE how hard you worked to get those tokens too, and they would have no reason to doubt you. If your sense of achievement doesn't come from yourself and it doesn't come from the way other people see you, where does it come from?

I respect your opinion, I'd just like to know the reasoning behind it.

Edit: Metaphor:

If you ran a marathon coast to coast across the entire United States, would it diminish your sense of achievement if later 500 people each paid for a private jet to fly them from one coast to the other?

If you won a gold medal in the Olympics and the next 10 people who won did so by buying the medal, that would be a better analogy.

[blackmesa]

I proposed that you can't buy pre-leveled toons, but you can buy significantly more powerful XP Constructs and that you still have to go through a certain amount of levels without using these powerful XP Constructs. Would this way of paying for levels make you feel less cheated?

Also, there's a big difference here with real life analogies in that this isnt real life. They are selling solutions to boredom they created. This whole world is an artificial construct of Funcoms making.

They could have just made leveling more fun and nerfed hecks, or they could have upped XP or droprates to help keep old players around who don't want to do the grind again.

And before someone argues that the grind is easy, or that there is a ton of content, just remember that it isn't that way for everyone. There are some 320 levels in this game and insanely low drop rates on many things. There are quite a few un-fun parts of the game, re-leveling, token grinding, vp griding, and more. Any one of the grinds may not be "that bad" to do once, or may have even gotten better, but after 10 years there are a lot of grinds/time sinks in this game. Dont expect any of that to change when now they see it as a revenue stream. The fact that all of this stuff is still a grind is no one's fault but Funcom.

We're supposed to be paying to have fun here, not paying to skip the not-so-fun parts.

Selling VP/XP/Token/Buff packs/Etc is a broken promise.

Incidentally, they've also managed to piss off the vocal pvpers who like limiting access to ofab as well as the vocal pvmers who want more access to ofab. That takes special talent if you ask me.

[nitr0]

One of my achievements is that every one of my toons/twinks over level 100 has maxed token boards (1k or 2.5k).. Achieved through hard work earning tokens in game.. Same question applies.. does FC's plan to sell tokens for $RL diminish my sense of achievement.. Imo, yes it does...

all i have to do to get 1k tokens on new toons is go to the veteran shop.
and i am not the only one =)

what i want to say...it really won't make a big difference if some ppl buy them.
as long as FC puts the money into AO i am into it.

[lyledesol]

**Points at a dead horse, which apparently has been beaten to death**

Apparently.. the horse is just a bit lame and tired.. Ignoring some pillock pointing at it probably...

I'm just curious why it would diminish your sense of achievement though? YOU know how hard you worked to get all those tokens......

I did say it was all pretty subjective ^^ .. Buying tokens makes my effort meaningless imo.. Regardless of what Means said tokens ARE a power item! .. My TL4/5 toons are pvp toons.. Token boards are a must at those levels for 9/10 toons if you want to be any good.. Other people using $RL (when I can't btw, not made of money) makes me sad...

That person didn't achieve it though, he/she was taken there through the aid of others......

I sure he feels proud of the effort, and it was an effort, think of the time spent getting it there and the number of Pande runs it would have taken.. I expect his guildies and friends are proud of it too.. Heck, I respect him for doing it, noway I'd try... What's your personal achievements btw? Must be good if you're so quick to belittle his...

... To me, all sense of accomplishment comes from yourself. But that's a different story.)...

I regard recognition by others just as important as self recognition btw. For being good at something or for the effort involved..

......I proposed that you can't buy pre-leveled toons, but you can buy significantly more powerful XP Constructs and that you still have to go through a certain amount of levels without using these powerful XP Constructs. Would this way of paying for levels make you feel less cheated?

I wouldn't have a problem with that.. I liked the XP stims so much I farmed quite a few and put them on the toons I wanted to level soon.. Before the nodrop nerf ofc...



It's Tokens, VP and Levels I have a real problem with btw.. I don't think $RL is the way to go with those things.. if it does, then it's sets a very bad precedent for the future of our game...

[Protozo]

I can't wait for the shopping channel to turn to 100% ofab only for armor sales. It'll be easiest and by far the best armor to have leveling from 1-150. Don't bother with anything else if you have LE, ofab is cheap and common as dirt. I like ofab either being Yesdrop or VP buyable, but NOT both. Come on!

Oh and Means, please, you have to give in on something as a gesture to the hardcore crowd here. I'm not hardcore, but scratch the whole buy 50 levels thing. Make a gesture, scratch that. That is game killing.

The xp packs will be more than enough.

[Mastablasta]

Also, there's a big difference here with real life analogies in that this isnt real life. They are selling solutions to boredom they created. This whole world is an artificial construct of Funcoms making.

They could have just made leveling more fun and nerfed hecks, or they could have upped XP or droprates to help keep old players around who don't want to do the grind again.

And before someone argues that the grind is easy, or that there is a ton of content, just remember that it isn't that way for everyone. There are some 320 levels in this game and insanely low drop rates on many things. There are quite a few un-fun parts of the game, re-leveling, token grinding, vp griding, and more. Any one of the grinds may not be "that bad" to do once, or may have even gotten better, but after 10 years there are a lot of grinds/time sinks in this game. Dont expect any of that to change when now they see it as a revenue stream. The fact that all of this stuff is still a grind is no one's fault but Funcom.

We're supposed to be paying to have fun here, not paying to skip the not-so-fun parts.

Selling VP/XP/Token/Buff packs/Etc is a broken promise.

Incidentally, they've also managed to piss off the vocal pvpers who like limiting access to ofab as well as the vocal pvmers who want more access to ofab. That takes special talent if you ask me.

They already did all those things. But for some of us who've been around for ages or those with 5-6 and more 220 chars, I think there's a point in time when you just don't want to spend that amount of time just getting a new character to try out some newly introduced level locked content. There's a limit to how much fun leveling is when you've done it to a certain degree.

Selling XP, tokens, buffpacks and VP are not broken promises. These are things that are free to get in the game if you throw time at it. They don't require you to have any skill, build up gear, learn to play or anything. Any noob can go from 1-220 without knowing anything about anything and do it in 1% of the time it used to take. No broken promises by charging a bit of credits for that. There's no rare loot or powerful items in this booth that you couldn't get by sitting afk ingame already.

As for pissing off people, then why would "pvp'ers" want to restrict access to regular gear that everyone wants, removing the "gimps" from their BS and why would "pvm'ers" be pissed that they can now use their pvm rewards to buy the gear they were pissed about having to go pvp to get? Because they're not being rational. That's why.