Friday with Means - Light at the end of the tunnel - February 26th, 2010

[Apexsilverevo]

The average trader AS on soldier is 4900 dmg while the average UNDRAINED burst+fa on the trader is 5300, 3500 with divest.

LOL My point exactly... Most traders run low HP since we don't have the heals to keep up with a Hp capped AS or FA... So 5300 dmg is more than 2/3 my life. A 4900 Capped AS still leaves a Soldier with ow about 16k life. You do the math mate.

[Mikenche]

despite all of this though -30% reflects on non AMS soldiers is worse than what BR is right now, cant we just scratch the whole thing and have FUN again please? my perfect idea of AO would be for it to be actually.....FUN and debuffs are the worst things you could imlent to ruin fun, just look at CB and roots for example, it ruins so many peoples fun, the people with those tools would just go back to their main or reroll advy, which are going back melee next patch, there done im happy!

Unfortunately, my observation of AO and other online games and communities show that some people get their enjoyment from ruining other people's fun. I don't know what exactly your idea of fun is, but if it includes things like near-zero deaths-to-kills ratio, be advised that in a balanced game such things can't exist within a group of players of similar skill. You should expect to die as much as you kill. Also, since the professions in AO are so vastly different, there are bound to be combinations where prof A is strong against prof B, but weak against prof C.

lol... I have/play a 220 trader mate, it ain't all that. Granted it ain't super geared, but isn't that the point of balancing? Making it easier to still be viable without all the super uber wtfbqpwnjoo gear? I mean maybe I happen to go up against all the best/most geared people, but I don't last long at all.

As I've understood, the rebalancing act is about making each profession viable against other profs in a similar setup. It's not meant to make a character in 200 carb and a 250 kyr weapon viable against another with alien armor and a xan weapon. (Perhaps a bit extreme example, but you get the idea). Furthermore, as noted above, in a game as diverse as like AO there will inevitably be some prof that your prof is weak against, even in a similar setup. It's really quite comical how every prof forum contains whines about how their prof is getting shafted by the rebalancing act and will be utterly ineffective. Is this a sign of an impending rise of the GMs as the kings of AO PVP?

[PhoenixOfAges]

Grand Theft Humidity:

This is obtained from the Pen quest line so let's just make it a beefed up version of the SL nano drains rather than a very fast version of the RK nano drains. RK ones hit on cast plus three or four more times with a 15 second delay, they can also be stacked three times. SL ones drain a single large amount and return a percentage of that.

Current highest SL trader nano drain:
Drains 1120-2016 nano from the target and returns 75% to the user.
315 nano point cost
Attack and recharge time is the same for all of them in the line (4.5/4.0).
No lock on use.
Lvl 218 requirement on use.

Proposed new Grand Theft Humidity:
15x-30x the lvl of the user in nano drained (3300-6600 at lvl 220) from the target and returns 80% to the user.
350 nano point cost
Attack and recharge time is the same for all of them in the line (4.5/4.0).
120 second lock out.


LE Nemesis Nanos:
Toss them all.

[Freor]

Well, nice to see the devs at least realise the horrendous effects of GTH/BR to peoples gameplay. These "fixes" in their current form sure arent what I, and after reading the thread, a whole lot of other ppl seem to have expected. Imho:

GTH: Still bit too powerfull for my taste, 1 min lockout helps but remember that it takes quite a bit of time to refill nano after the 15s when in fight. Traders already have huge drains for skills and 'ok' hp-drain, they really need to be able to empty people's nano too? Maybe if there's plans to lower the drains so ppl might actually be able to hit them while drained this would make more sense. Without knowing other changes sounds a bit too powerfull against casters. Better than current GTH for sure tho, and could live with it. Personally I'd prefer at least a bit longer lockout, making it's use more "strategic".

BR: Err, what. Works on 24%+ reflects on anyone? Soljas have been crying for being used as reflect-drain totems for years (hence being unable to ams when traders present), why on earth would you instead of fixing that make other profs feel the same? Best solution: Remove BR and the other nemesis nanos entirely. Easy, cheap fix and makes lot of people happy without using much of devs time. Like so many have already stated, the whole nemesis (aka rock-paper-scissors) idea was stupid from start. Experienced players want to win with skill/work, not due to having the "I win" button.

If for some reason you choose to not listen to the playerbase and keep these damn nanos, at least make sure soljas wont get so heavily nerfed with the use of single button. Think about it this way: How would you feel giving prof X a nano to lower all evades by say 2000 with 50% check? Would have similar effect on evaders than BR on soljas. Yeah, sounds stupid doesn't it. That's BR in it's current and here-mentioned form.

And for crying out loud don't force people to run around with 23% reflects. As in, dont make it work on everyone.

[Mikenche]

Perhaps there should be a progession in how much BR steals? Like this:
1-5% - steal 3%
6-10% - steal 6%
11-15% - steal 9%
16-20% - steal 12%
21-25% - steal 15%
26-30% - steal 18%
31-40% - steal 20%
41-50% - steal 22%
51-60% - steal 24%
61% or more - steal 25%

Also, the benefit for the trader could be halved if he has any external reflect running, meaning that RRFE + BR would only be 42%.

Now, RRFE is still the best reflect buff you can have, letting you keep 12% reflect. The trader gets 18% reflect from random people with RRFE, which is significant but hardly godmode. If the trader already has RRFE himself, he only gets 39% total, which roughly corresponds to PNS. Presumably this is not OP since no one has complained about soljas using it. A solja with TMS gets left at 50% reflect, having his damage intake doubled. AMS V leaves the solja with 62% reflect, which is nearly triple damage intake, but still removes two thirds of the attackers damage (and slightly more than a SoZ MP which someone called godmode).

And before someone comments that reflects are solja's only defense and traders have other defenses - from what I've understood of FC's plans for traders in the rebalancing act, their offense and defense will be much more reliant on what their opponent has. So if a trader fights a solja, he gets reflects - if he fights an MA or shade, maybe he'll gets evades instead, etc.

[Worldofalts]

Perhaps there should be a progession in how much BR steals? Like this:
1-5% - steal 3%
6-10% - steal 6%
11-15% - steal 9%
16-20% - steal 12%
21-25% - steal 15%
26-30% - steal 18%
31-40% - steal 20%
41-50% - steal 22%
51-60% - steal 24%
61% or more - steal 25%

Also, the benefit for the trader could be halved if he has any external reflect running, meaning that RRFE + BR would only be 42%.

bump for this. promises a healthy balance, as long as its not spammable across multiple targets. Or if it is, it won't stack with itself.

[heartless888]

bump for all trader drains to only last 15 seconds. i agree!

[Apexsilverevo]

Its like people just don't read all the comments from traders.....

Soldiers are crying about ONE profession that can counter them, and this is only to help the super squishy trader have a sliver of hope to stay alive in mass pvp. I like the BR changes, it means I don't have to hit TAB then "T" a million times in hopes to try and find a soldier who just MIGHT have TMS running in tower wars. This game isn't based on 1v1 or duels. Its about towers and mass pvp.

GTH is our only way to run NBD, again our only other defence in mass pvp and you cry because after 15s you have to hit all your Nano regen perks...But after 15s our NBD will completely render us useless for FORTY FIVE SECONDS. Come on now.

[merlin4]

Sounds good, but for some professions you really should change the effect of the nano entirely, and not just tweak the numbers so that ppl can cope with them. The current effects are built around harming the targeted profession instead making yourself more effective. If these are switched so they can be cast on all professions, then they should be designed with this in mind.

As an example of this the crat nano Rabies is totally useless atm. (The tick is far from enough to kill pvp advies. Don't forget that advies have heals....) Why do crats even have a dot, its not in our toolset, give us an aoe fear/calm/snare/root/stun designed for pvp instead?

@apex
You make a good point, this really isnt a dueling game. In fact players with a weakness to your profession, will generally refuse to duel you, which makes these nemesis nanos even more useless as is.

[Klod9003]

But after 15s our NBD will completely render us useless for FORTY FIVE SECONDS. Come on now.

Don't use it then, duh.

[rapp3d]

And in mass pvp, an 82% AMS for 1:20 is going to keep you alive with even retarded healers. Add in blockers, absorbs etc... A soldier has a lot better shot at staying alive then a trader hands down.

onoes some support proff seller getting killed faster than front line combat proff Soldier

thatfails rly u need sl ess and ultraimongo with 66% reflect 25k bonusHP and 5k hot heals every 5 sec
spammable

i mean rly FC if u keep do stuff liek this u will have to change proff description at character creation soon

[Freor]

Soldiers are crying about ONE profession that can counter them,

lol There just happens to be quite a few profs out there able to "counter" soljas. Engis and NTs popping to mind first. Remember soljas have no roots, and one of the lowest runspeed ingame. Meaning most people can just run away if they dont want to die.

and this is only to help the super squishy trader have a sliver of hope to stay alive in mass pvp.

If talking about real MASS pvp, those 100 v 100 fights, it wont matter how much reflect you have (except traders with 100% ofc!). When you get called, you die. Sure traders are quite vulnerable to alphas, but you do realise it's the only way to kill trader 1v1? When drains land, you have won. Just takes some time. Asking this alpha-vulnerability to be "fixed" by effectively gaining TMS with all the other tools traders have is like advys asking blockers.

I like the BR changes, it means I don't have to hit TAB then "T" a million times in hopes to try and find a soldier who just MIGHT have TMS running in tower wars. This game isn't based on 1v1 or duels. Its about towers and mass pvp.

Everything should come with a price. Soljas indeed have one of the best survivabilities in mass pvp, but thats it. No roots, no calms, no off/def aoe auras, no drains... nothing, just reflect for team (fix pre-null stacking order already tho!). Trader have it harder to survive when called, but you have quite a lot of other tools to contribute to the battle. You cant just pick your vulnerability and ask that to be fixed, and maintain all the good tools you have. That creates god-mode profs which this rebalancing is meant to remove.

Effectively what traders would get is almost-TMS like reflects with no nanoskills shutdown, being able to use all the drains, roots, heals etc under that. Soldier with only tms but with FA replaced by AS and all the trader toolset sound balanced? Didnt think so

[Apexsilverevo]

lol There just happens to be quite a few profs out there able to "counter" soljas. Engis and NTs popping to mind first. Remember soljas have no roots, and one of the lowest runspeed ingame. Meaning most people can just run away if they dont want to die.



If talking about real MASS pvp, those 100 v 100 fights, it wont matter how much reflect you have (except traders with 100% ofc!). When you get called, you die. Sure traders are quite vulnerable to alphas, but you do realise it's the only way to kill trader 1v1? When drains land, you have won. Just takes some time. Asking this alpha-vulnerability to be "fixed" by effectively gaining TMS with all the other tools traders have is like advys asking blockers.



Everything should come with a price. Soljas indeed have one of the best survivabilities in mass pvp, but thats it. No roots, no calms, no off/def aoe auras, no drains... nothing, just reflect for team (fix pre-null stacking order already tho!). Trader have it harder to survive when called, but you have quite a lot of other tools to contribute to the battle. You cant just pick your vulnerability and ask that to be fixed, and maintain all the good tools you have. That creates god-mode profs which this rebalancing is meant to remove.

Effectively what traders would get is almost-TMS like reflects with no nanoskills shutdown, being able to use all the drains, roots, heals etc under that. Soldier with only tms but with FA replaced by AS and all the trader toolset sound balanced? Didnt think so

Please read my previous post about Drains and how hard it is for us to drain/heal etc and try to stay alive lol.... the TLR version, is our heal is useless unless we run under 9k life, which means if we get perked even twice we are dead. Totally taking us out of mass pvp.

Granted you don't have a root or stun, that I know of.. ( I am making a soldier cause I am tired of being so gimp ) your class is just much more viable for major pvp in the tl7 bracket.

Ow, and you do have a off/def aura lol.. Pre-Nullity and Suppressive horde lol :P

[Klod9003]

Please read my previous post about Drains and how hard it is for us to drain/heal etc and try to stay alive lol.... the TLR version, is our heal is useless unless we run under 9k life, which means if we get perked even twice we are dead. Totally taking us out of mass pvp.

That's why you have Your Enemy's Enemy is your Friend on top of all that. Not sure why you need BR at all, or even GTH in any form.

[Solstiare]

BR needs to lock out GTH and vice-versa

[Solstiare]

But after 15s our NBD will completely render us useless for FORTY FIVE SECONDS. Come on now.

and you expect what, sympathy from NT's or Docs over that?

[mammothtruk]

why does every thread end up on this topic? pretty sure there is a forum for just such things.

[Mythking]

Well, nice to see the devs at least realise.....
Think about it this way: How would you feel giving prof X a nano to lower all evades by say 2000 with 50% check? Would have similar effect on evaders than BR on soljas. Yeah, sounds stupid doesn't it. That's BR in it's current and here-mentioned form....

You do know 1hb/1he Enfs got -1k evade nemesis nano(MA), and 50% perks + SA, right? + MR and challenger on alot of them.

[2423423]

You do know 1hb/1he Enfs got -1k evade nemesis nano(MA), and 50% perks + SA, right? + MR and challenger on alot of them.

He does know that. Because unlike a few ppl I don't have to mention by name Fre pvp's from level 1-220 and has been for many years.

Slowdown is almost as stupid like BR. It does give the enf the chance to alpha the MA, but it also doesn't grant godmode to the enf like BR does for the trader.

They need to be removed along with the other so called nemesis nanos.

[Worldofalts]

why does every thread end up on this topic? pretty sure there is a forum for just such things.

I lol'd