Cryday with Means - May 15th, 2009

[meatybtz]

Goal, as you put it is the perfect example of whats wrong in AO.

Reaching 200 back in the day was quite an acomplishment but what was different was being 200 you still were not "godlike". 220s are.

There was alot more roleplay back then too. Like the fights in Sabulum where PVPing decided the outcome of a storyline incident. Players want their efforts to matter. Other games that have this *soul* and.. yes I hate to keep harping on it but EVE Online. Players can join their Empires Millitia and Fleet up and go wrek some havoc on the other Empires stations and jumpgates. The price being they are KOS to other Empires NPCs. This is great.. it adds "feel" to the game. If I wanted to I could join the Amarr Millitia and through my actions actualy and factually expand my empires control of space. That is.. my in-game actions have an impact on the game world itself. Or I can form a corp and wrest control of 0.0 space from some other corp. That is.. again.. my in-game actions have a direct impact on the day to day factual setup of the game world.

You could boil it down to AO being too static. If what guns you could get and how many were available was decided by how many clan attacks against omni resource outposts you stoped then players would care. Leveling to 220/30/70 is fun once.. maybe even twice.. just as a goal on its own. But as my wife and another ingame friend said... "When I first started playing this game I thought that the missions I was doing had a direct impact on the game world. When I realized this wasnt the case the game became nothing but a grind for levels and ego. I was so dissapointed. There was no storyline, no Role Play, no change that I could effect that had lasting consiquences on the game world or story. I felt locked out, left out of the story. I was just some observer and my character didnt matter at all. It was the biggest let down ever."

[Kain97]

Then the reason they don't know about a lot of things is they are in a huge rush to get to 220 or whatever.

And that is FC's fault. Giving out workarounds, bandaids and fixes at tl7 instead of reworking things throughout a profession's various levels is sloppy. Having to choose between having fun by exploring, and leveling at a decent clip by bashing rocks mindlessly or leeching in inf means there's something missing. There definitely needs to be more content at the midlevels, more dungeons, etc... as well as a boost to xp everywhere - I really fail to see what would be so bad if everything in AO was brought up to heck xp levels, or 80-90% of heck xp. Sure, leveling would be faster.. but you'd find people doing more than just hecks too, and hopefully learning what's expected of them while doing so. It's a mad rush to tl7 for many either way, might as well make it more fun/enjoyable.

[Ebondevil]

And that is FC's fault. Giving out workarounds, bandaids and fixes at tl7 instead of reworking things throughout a profession's various levels is sloppy. Having to choose between having fun by exploring, and leveling at a decent clip by bashing rocks mindlessly or leeching in inf means there's something missing. There definitely needs to be more content at the midlevels, more dungeons, etc... as well as a boost to xp everywhere - I really fail to see what would be so bad if everything in AO was brought up to heck xp levels, or 80-90% of heck xp. Sure, leveling would be faster.. but you'd find people doing more than just hecks too, and hopefully learning what's expected of them while doing so. It's a mad rush to tl7 for many either way, might as well make it more fun/enjoyable.

I believe Hecklers are actually fairly poor xp for their level, the problem is you find level very high level hecklers compared to the other mobs in the same region, so in comparison to other mobs available they give significantly more experience.

Basically what I'm saying is that it's not that the XP on Hecks is good, it's that the Hecks are too high a level for the area they're in, at least for Nascence, Elysium and Adonis.

[gergiskoo]

Ebon, that's a really good point.

How about bringing down the level of hecklers and cranking up the difficulty? Harder to calm, less predictable agg, etc. Then change how XP is scaled so that they give better XP when they're yellow/orange but are either unkillable or inaccessable while red.

[Keldros]

Then change how XP is scaled so that they give better XP when they're yellow/orange but are either unkillable or inaccessable while red.

Quoted the only part that's really necessary. And even that's overkill.
The problem isn't people fighting hecklers for XP, it's people getting heckler XP while the hecklers are fighting someone else. ("someone else" can be a kiter on the same team or OST.)

[Menzagitat]

Means, HELP! I am loosing my balance

"The essence of balance is detachment. To embrace a cause, to grow fond or spiteful, is to lose one's balance, after which, no action can be trusted. Our burden is not for the dependent of spirit." -Mayar, Third Keeper

Will you restore the balance in the game?

[meatybtz]

The problem isnt XP or even leveling. Its a game where the only goal is empty and grindy so players seek to minimise it.


Attack the fundemental problem.. not the symptom. Rocket leveling, OST, Kiting are all born of the nature of the real problem. They are not the problem in and of itself. The problem is the static nature of the game coupled with the fact that all balancing and new content is balanced towards one factor only: Level 220... what this does is make any other level irrelevant. The player answer to this is to get to the "relevant" level of playing as fast as possible.

It needs to be a journy and it isnt so no wonder players dont want to meander through the long and grueling process for no real purpose or reason.. other than to be grindy. One of the classic examples is Crowd Control nanos being essentially useless till your at or near 220. Roots and Snares dont work because mobs have enormous NR and Resists... those few that do land break instantly in SL. The pervading thought is I need to be 220 for my tool kit to work because prior to that its nerfed or incomplete or just outright useless. This things need to be addressed.

[windcaster]

*

Ya but the thing which ao lack the most is : role playing and goal


In Ao it's i want to be 220 to be able to do all instance to be able to pvp because if i roxx in pvp i will show othe player that i roxx etc.....


That goal, the role the game give you and the effect you have on the game is what make the soul of any game.
In a pvp game more you play more a side win. in a pve game more you play more your story continue.
Ao have an huge story but it doesn't merge with gameplay.

ya it's true, almost no one RP's in this game, sometimes arks will show up and get something going, but there is always others that want to ruin it.. or better yet will mock anyone who does join in.. role playing in this game is view as lame or negative, oh the irony that role playing in a role playing game could be an undesirable.

the story is'nt controlled (for the most part) by the players.. it's controlled by FC, as such more often then not players are treated as background props rather then the engine for shaping the game world.

You could boil it down to AO being too static.
.....There was no storyline, no Role Play, no change that I could effect that had lasting consiquences on the game world or story.

exactly, this game hardly ever changes, they just throw new gear at us, sometimes new quests.. but nothing changes in the game world, i've suggested changes to make the game more dynamic a few times.

oh sure every once in a while they mix things up.. remember unicorns in borealis? before they got nerfed to hell? clams was on the wanted list.. buggy unicorn specialist warping all over the place pwning on sight..

sure clams did'nt like it.. i can understand that but it actually made the game exciting for that few days before the "omgz nerf" cries rang out and they got rid of teh unicorns.. i think there is still a couple of lower guards.. but they dont agg and are easy to kill.

they gave the clams 4holes.. ok big deal 4holes sucked anyway..
those changes are good though.. mixing things up..

the problem is they happen far to rarely.. and the players are'nt in control.. it just "magically" happens one day after patching.. FC is driving the game.. not the players.

i made the suggestion having a once a week (perhaps more often if it works out well) of having a city raid.. would be a blend of pvp and pvm with the winning side taking control of the city (guards and shops change faction)..

the suggestion has since been lost in the suggestion pages.. i could'nt find it using search.

that type of change would make the actions of players effect day to day operation of EVERY one.. so it would be in EVERY ones interest to make sure your side either kept or gained cites, not everyone cares about towers, but everyone cares about the perm cities, because every one uses them.. granted some cites would have to be immune from this to protect newbies trying to level in subway for example..

anyway yes moar dynamic world.. i can't stress that enough, this game feels stale, it does'nt feel like a live world at all.

[Tutomech]

...

Awesome.

And to keep old players around we need more consumable / destroyable stuff (aka towers), something like: http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...d.php?t=550780

And give rewards from pvp: example XP stims for VPs...

[Nevo-RK3]

- Fix Def check on the new Perks to AT LEAST 100% check!

- Make the +full auto Bonus on the new Fixer weapon 250 max, not 500...

- Stop giving away Specials (that were rather prof specific) to every prof like it was candy on Halloween!
__________________________________________________ ______________

If you think that the AS pistol is the way to go, then AT LEAST!!! fix the def check on the new perks, that is definately toooo much!

And IF you give fixer a FA cycle like Soldiers, then at LEAST!! Give Soldiers the equal Chance to cap their Envy cycle in easy mode too, why does the Full Auto Prof Soldier have to put on a lot of FA stuff in order to cap it, while Fixers now get the easy mode?

Soldiers are supposed to be the ones with the big guns and firepower!

Fixers are supposed to be support and hell they are good in it!!!!
(i do have two fixers and love them to bits, and i do NOT understand why so many people whine around all the time!!) (BE MORE CREATIVE PEOPLE!!!)

__________________________________________________ ______________

In general: WHY do you have to give all profs the same stuff...

So an Adv cant alpha kill a lot... SO WHAT!!!!!!!? Advs have Absorbs, Evades, heal, are the only prof that has a buffsupported Choice between Both, ranged and melee weapons, the have potential to dish out crazy pvm damage, get a crazy def equip in pvp and are an overall easy to play prof.

ADV doesnt NEED ANYTHING!!!

There is a description for every prof when you roll a new char. There are even difficulty levels! Please do not change everything so people wont even have to make choices anymore!!!

Do not listen to all the whining and give in every time someone starts Spamming their oh so clever "Give me love!" crap!!

__________________________________________________ ______________


AND DO LISTEN TO RK3!!!

I do not know if you have read or discussed the letter our community manager Waldgeist wrote to us, but IF you know what he wrote, and IF you happen to think the same about us germans and the way we play, then PLEASE let us know and PLEASE communicate with us!

i posted that in the discussion about the AS pistol first, as this thread was hidden on page two!

[Sethic]

You act like nekked fixers could achieve capping speeds on the envy with a +500 buff. Please don't assume a full ofab fixer can cap FA on the new version, because that's just not true.

[Kaylinne]

Some people think using caps makes them right by default.

[PhoenixOfAges]

Half true. People who power level know already the game quite well.

That's not true at all. The people that power lvl are those in a huge rush, that's it. Some may know the game and maybe even that prof well but a lot don't. I'm sure we've all run into high lvl chars that don't know jack about many things regarding their prof or the game in general. Even if you do know the game well if you've never played that prof power lvling with the safety of an outside tank or what not results in you not learning to play your new prof well.

And that is FC's fault. Giving out workarounds, bandaids and fixes at tl7 instead of reworking things throughout a profession's various levels is sloppy.

Not really as much of the cracks and problems are more in the high char lvl range than early to mid lvl range. This was made worse to due to the large amount of at times far too powerful stuff added solely in that range, especialy since the time Sil was put in charge.

Sil added a lot of new stuff but much of it was in the lvl 201+ range. Then Means said a ways back that most people are in the high lvl range which is why LoX was solely aimed at that range. People want to get to 220 in a hurry as they are god like then compared to what they would be like at earlier lvls but they were already god like before all that new overpowered stuff at that range.

They could certainly do more to provide things to do and adjustments to improve things across the lvl range. Adjusting perk lines as they are starting to do in 18.1 does that to some extent. Some zone just for the 170-200 lvl range or so like S10 (but without the stuipidly high mob health) would be good for instance.

Simply throwing more items at us won't necessarily fix things since as we've seen before that can in fact make matters worse. So more fundamental changes such as to the workings of specials and the like as I mentioned in prior posts here should do more to help.

The thing with specials now is that prior to SL implants, breed ability caps, IP limits and less NCU meant you couldn't cap out a large number of specials. Now, and especially after the new xan symbs a 220 enf for instance could have a 1HB in one hand, a 1HE in the other have both weapon types capped, use all their big nanos and use all the melee weapon specials at their fastest recharge rate. Before people would have to specialize more or have more specials but slower recharges. Then using two weapon types most likely would mean one had a decent amount lower AR than the other due to overlapping clusters. The balance we once had through the limits of implants, breed ability caps, IP and NCU are gone now so some adjustments to regain it are in order.

I believe Hecklers are actually fairly poor xp for their level, the problem is you find level very high level hecklers compared to the other mobs in the same region, so in comparison to other mobs available they give significantly more experience.

This is mostly true. As you go up to a new SL area the XP a lvl X mob gives is higher than in a prior SL area. Then there's your more regular mobs in the earlier lvl range and brink type ones in the high lvl range in that zone. Although it seems brink mobs like hecks, tiigs, crips, croakers, spiders and a few others do give more XP than other mobs in the same region of the same lvl. The easiest way to see that is in some static dungeon where everything is around the same lvl range. A tiig in there can give a decent amount more XP than a spirit of the same lvl for instance. The "regular" mob XP in the next SL area will be around the boosted brink mob XP of the prior area at the same lvl though.

Then one of the important things in getting XP is not just how much XP you get per mob but how long they take to kill and their population. I've found some nice places to hang out that no one else ever seems to go to.

The problem isn't people fighting hecklers for XP, it's people getting heckler XP while the hecklers are fighting someone else. ("someone else" can be a kiter on the same team or OST.)

Completely and 100% agree. I've never liked either kite or OST (outside tank) "teams" and try to avoid both. An actual team working together and made up of people that invested some time and effort into their chars can do quite well or even better than a kite or typical OST team.

Like with the typical OST team at lower lvls, I all on my own can often kill the hecks at about twice the rate or faster than a group of about six do. Even if they are around the same lvl as me and fighting just one heck. They then proceed to complain bitterly to me with hate tell spam. Next the OST starts chasing me around purposely ODing me so as to deny me XP then gathers a mess of hecks to drop on me so as to kill me. All of that just makes me hate them all the more and every so often I send a petition.

The problem isnt XP or even leveling. Its a game where the only goal is empty and grindy so players seek to minimise it.

Applying a defined and clear purpose to a single player game is an easier task than in a MMORPG. With a single player one it's just you so everything centers around you and you can bring about game world changing events one after the other. In MMORPGs there needs to be at least some degree of a static aspect as if so much of things keep changing every few minutes it'd get a bit troublesome.

So instead in MMORPGs game makers give us various quests that send us off to do this or that where we learn something of the game world and get something in return. Although just how often have people complained about overly chatty NPCs and said how they wanted short-cut options to get through that? Some parts can be subject to change or even attackable such as tower fields and to a lesser extent AI city plots.

More would be nice. While the bulk of it is a steaming mound of crap in this grindtastic game called Dofus (if you think AO has grind and lacks purpose, NEVER try Dofus) one thing that's sort of nice is how one of the two competing sides can take over certain areas. Then so long as they are in control of it only those of their side can attack the good XP mobs there and deal with the NPCs that may sell special things. Can't remember the specifics on how you take an area over but something like that could be good.

Even then though you still don't get the same sense of purpose as from single player games. Your side controlling a region or a segment of land is interesting for a while but tends to be ignored in time. Look at how being able to take over tower fields was completely ignore by others here as dynamic content. In a MMORPG the purpose is just what you make it really, it's not scripted by the game makers.

One of the classic examples is Crowd Control nanos being essentially useless till your at or near 220. Roots and Snares dont work because mobs have enormous NR and Resists... those few that do land break instantly in SL.

The problem there is how the RK ones may or may not have higher NR checks but do often have higher lvl checks. The SL ones in fact may have no lvl checks at all. A lvl 160 crat can calm a 210 ado heck with one of their short SL calms without much trouble, even the last RK one with a mere 5% lvl check works well. Although a 180 trader with 420 extra nano skills from nanite drains and a good bit from other things will have a heck of a time calming the same mob due to their calm having a 75% lvl check. Trader target roots though will work pretty well with their 15% lvl check.

Many to most SL nanos only start becoming available at lvl 200+. There are some that show up in early lvls like shorter duration SL crat calms or entirely new types of nano lines available at earlier lvls but often SL nanos have lvl 200+ locks. Where part of the issue lies is in how while we may now at times run out of most to all our RK nanos before lvl 100 we may not get any more till lvl 200+ when the SL ones show up. In the past it would have taken far longer to run out of RK nanos but with symbs and all the other bonus stuff that is no longer the case. More new nanos like those added in the 17.x patches in the one RK and two Scheol quests (without being hellishly long and dull to do please) would be good and could certainly help.

Add:
One extra point about new nanos is they should rather than being something completely new just be part of an older line. Like the MA target heal added in the RK quest from that 17.x patch, it's better than the last RK target heal but a good bit weaker than the first SL target heal (lvl 204+). More stuff like that would be perfect. It's some of these new "where did that come from?" sort of stuff that people tend to feel imbalance things the most.

[Menzagitat]

http://www44.wolframalpha.com/input/...rchy+Online%3F

http://www44.wolframalpha.com/input/...re+Means+is%3F

[Menzagitat]

Then the reason they don't know about a lot of things is they are in a huge rush to get to 220 or whatever. It's when you wander around on your own trying various things and going various places that you find out about some of the different things out there. Instead all they see from the earliest lvls to 160-200 is a 220 enf mongoing hecks as they wack away at them in complete safety or sit AFK as others do. Then from 160-200+ they're running inf missions as the high lvls kill the stuff in them and they try to avoid getting agro in their med-suits and what not. Not until about 210+ do they figure their suppose to contribute or put much if any effort into their char and that's what's wrong.

I do not think blaming people is the right answer.
All gamers find pleasure in optimizing leveling.
The sad part is that the "better way" leads to repetitive tasks in this game.

Even if real time decisions are hard to implement for mobs, a bit of improvement should be made.
Grinding is the easiest way to slow down player leveling.

Did ever Funcom made an official statement about grinding? For all these years they could have done something about it.

I have the feeling Funcom don't even want to remove it (and not because it can't).

[vadagget]

That 'Serenity Islands' door looks more like the gateway to a penal colony. How about dressing it up a bit? Maybe not as fancy as Border House, but at least some sunny background and a few cheesy palm trees, like trailer park billboards in Florida

[Xyphos]

Start thinking about what to put in your client side chat filter...

Oh, so you ARE using it after all?
Glad I could help

[PhoenixOfAges]

I do not think blaming people is the right answer.
All gamers find pleasure in optimizing leveling.

Who else are we to blame for that behaviour? FC could and hopefully will change some things to prevent it so people get in real teams rather than those jackass OST "teams." Although it was those players that chose to do it in the first place.

It is those players that decided it was perfectly acceptable to not update their char much if at all for in some cases about 200 out of 220 lvls. It is those players that think all the mobs in that area belong to them. So if you dare come on your own or in a real team of 2-6 people then their 220 OST will do his best to OD you so you get little to no XP and/or train a mass of mobs on you to get you killed till you leave. It is those players that think it's perfectly fine to let others do all or most of the work while safely sponging tons of XP.

Lvling isn't there just to force you to spend more time in game. It's there to get you to practice with your char in real fights so you learn to play it better. There are far too many people running around with hardly a clue how to play their power lvled 200+ char and it was their choice that caused it, not FC.

Also in all games with it levelling does get repetitive, not just in AO. Find a mob, kill a mob, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat... There also can quite often be certain mobs or areas that are better for XP for some reason or better for certain drops so you try to do those a lot. People focusing on hecks to excess here is not all that uncommon of a general concept really. If levelling is too fast then that can be dull too as unless you want to spend time camping the best of the best gear you're largely done with multiple chars in short order.

Levelling in some OST or kite team is absurdly boring and painful as there is no risk. You're safe from harm and may even be able to AFK lvl multiple chars at once that way while watching TV or something. Although in real teams or when working on your own there is risk when fighting stuff that should things go bad will turn you into a stain on the ground. That makes things interesting and as I said in the prior post you can even move along faster than those OST "teams" where everyone is gimptacular. But as far too many are looking for those idiotic OST teams and they're always beyond rude towards those in the area trying to lvl in a normal fashion real teams don't happen much now. Which again is primarily the fault of those players, not FC.

[Solsssss]

http://www44.wolframalpha.com/input/...rchy+Online%3F

http://www44.wolframalpha.com/input/...re+Means+is%3F

lol

that search engine is so ****

[Verta]

snip

Lvling isn't there just to force you to spend more time in game. It's there to get you to practice with your char in real fights so you learn to play it better. There are far too many people running around with hardly a clue how to play their power lvled 200+ char and it was their choice that caused it, not FC.

snip

Though I agree with the general sentiment, you are wrong about this one. Levelling is there to force you to spend more time in game, while paying subscription fee. Remember pre-LE SL grind? There was nothing to do endgame, so getting to endgame was drawn out for as long as possible. Now there's plenty to do at TL7 and not much on the way there, so people rush their alts up.

Killing hecks is not much fun even first time round, And that other FC game does not have much grind btw, it does have some best solo and team instances in mid levels I have ever seen. FC does know how to make the mob killing business a lot less tedious than what we have here.