Can we see more balance doc's please?
Can we see more balance doc's please?
Last edited by McKnuckleSamwich; Aug 14th, 2010 at 22:58:06.
I believe they're removing the bacon wrap functionality so level 100 toons don't get warped into a 210-220 PvP zone or that level 220's don't get warped into a 175-200 zone and roflstomp everyone in there.
I believe there will be zones for all level ranges, but I'm not in the mood to go searching through previous FWM's for quotes for refrence.
You don't, firstly there's the testlive character transfer that was added in to help people get higher level characters on test more easily, and I believe it may be the bug hunters who run the Bugsy system as a service to help the players out since there's a smaller community.Originally Posted by Mehk
As for the PvP playfield, I've been thinking about it a bit and I have a few suggestions:
Have two different versions of the PvP zone at each level range
Battle-station PvP zone: This zone would be entered upon signing up for the Battle-station and would take players to the Battle-station when there are enough people, in this zone have the notum miners that drop VP. If you can't sign up for the Battle-station due to too much desertions you can't enter.
Free for all PvP Zone: This zone would be purely for PvP, no notum miners, no restrictions on entering, people stay as long as they want, leave when they want and have no obligation to go to the Battle-station.
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I like that idea. Unique so you can't farm and farm and farm. Item that you click to activate so if you know you will do some special raid or something later in the day you can go to BS much earlier to get it instead of hoping that BS happens to run just before you need the buff.
I think it should be something that even froobs can use to give them some incentive to go there. Something useful for PvM toons and PvP toons. Get Subway, ToTW and Foremans twinks want to run BS for that item/buff. Make it desirable to have it for that TL4 toon that hit title caps or (near) level 200 froob... That might be a way to get some more BS running.
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Great POV, IMHO.
However, there IS a way to make BS and the new area, viable by making certain changes besides what Gatester mentioned.
First of all, both areas should be separate, no doubt about it.
New Area
Available for ALL level ranges in one zone (yeah, crazy, but read on).
Upon entry, NCU is wiped. And the playfield does not allow for players to buff each other, only self buffs. Raid and Team interface blocked, you are on your own.
Signs pointing towards the respective level range areas, hey those Clan Mission Agency signs were genius, even a caveman can do it. Using something similar would do. Each sector has miners of different levels corresponding to the level range the signs state.
If player is NOT within level range of the mob, he gets ZERO VP, hell I even think that a high level attacking a lowbie miner should be penalized by an unblockable stun that lasts 5 minutes (one which won't let you move, attack or even sit to log out). So right there, any kind of bull**** to harass or interfere with lower levels, is stopped.
Of course now the easy way to get VP would be killing miners, however there could be a harder (and higher VP gain) from destroying something, let's call it "mining equipment", each protected by a turret. If decently equipped, the turret won't be deadly, with self buffs and stims you should be able to destroy the target (you don't get any VP for killing the turret and it will respawn automatically if you kill it). Once the mining equipment is destroyed the turret shuts down since there is nothing to protect. Now why should anyone get more VP for doing this? Because the mining equipment will have a substantial health bar, larger than any miner within your level range, it will take you a while to kill. That extra time should be rewarded.
So, if you have time to farm VP, mining equipment. If you want some fast VP in between other things that interest you (raiding, roleplaying, questing, etc), then go for miners.
Battlestation
I wanted to say this for the longest time. BS should be about strategy.
Once you come out of the containment area, you should be in the area next to your faction's terminal, not in the corridor next to it.
Both corridors leading toward the core should have NPC Anti Personnel Turrets from the opposite faction which have an AOE snare (think LoX Arid Rift, those towers have them) so not even a fixer can just run past them.
Ok, so now the players NEED to get into Mechs and clear the way for those who are on foot. But wait, what are behind the APT area? AVT's!! Mechs would have a tough time getting past them and getting out of the mechs won't help in the NEXT AVT area (it switches back and forth all the way to core). People in foot can use rockets to clear the way for Mechs.
The core should be surrounded by defense systems (think those floating metal balls from LE Missions at the end where the boss is) that will attack ANYONE regardless of faction. They are as effective as either a APT or a AVT (that may give someone a headache to balance but I think the Dev Team can do it).
So right there, both sides need to fight their way to core by clearing the way, once the corridors and core are clear of danger the same old tactic of "capping" the opposite side's terminal applies.
But that covers A and B, what happens to C?
Remember those defense systems at the core? well they are all over the corridor leading to C. So both sides will have to fight each other, AND then some to gain the advantage.
BS was about just who got the best PvP setting, now it's about strategy, the most organized group should clear the way to the core first, while the other group should still have a chance to take core after the other faction.
If you think "well then we'll just wait until the other guys clear the core", sorry. Once the Core has been capped, the numbers will start moving at about twice the speed as the old BS. You will be looking at a loss by doing nothing.
Now C could also be used to create a unique experience. Behind all those defensive systems and right next to the C terminal, could it be... a large robot (he could be named Battlestation Chief Mechanic) is waiting, if you are detected by him he will shout "Unauthorized Lifeform Detected! Executing Order 666! Terminate! Terminate!"... ok a little nod to Star Wars and Professor Who, but you get the point. You can't cap the terminal as long as he is alive, now both sides may actually be forced to work together... and as soon as he is down... he he, well back to shooting each other to cap!
Battle station should be a challenge, a team-driven area where strategy should count.
Anyone can run around, or just mech up and move without any danger to them, but by creating a hostile and challenging environment, then groups of players would go for a solid round of BS.
Also increase the speed of the score once the core is capped, and if all 3 are capped the round should end much faster than it currently does. Also the VP should be increased.
You want people to think "oh crap! they got all 3! we only have SECONDS to act!"
Create an adrenaline rush ffs! we want excitement, new challenges, get people to work together or fail, plain and simple.
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So there you go. New area, for solo action. BS for team action. I think balancing things out, both can be active.
As for the BS level ranges.... well that is another nightmare, I don't know how lower TL BS could be populated.
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Last edited by Wrangeline; Aug 14th, 2010 at 15:06:12.
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i second the 1hr bs buff - but would it be wiped if you did a second bs run, or would it just reset. plus it would have to stack with HI buff lines, and 12man buff, db buff etc. - would be like god mode for an hour - it would be fun and might get more people to do all those raids more often.
It's not beside the point, it is the point.
Pure speculation you mean. There has never been any proof of that as it's never been tested even once.
If VP was gone VP farmers wouldn't go. If BS dailies were gone, those just trying to get some more XP/SK and tokens along with some more VP wouldn't go.
Although we do know that people not there to PvP participate in BSs differently than those that want to PvP. At the end of another fast four point cap dash to the finish round or the like it's not uncommon to see people that are known PvP fans gripe about how the VP farmers fouled up their fun and then leave. It appears there are some interested PvPers not going or not going as much as they often get weak opponents to fight and not enough good fights which is not fun to them. It's not uncommon to see people camping outside the BS dueling people but don't go in themselves. Some have set up VP farm rounds where no actual PvP goes on at all. On RK2 the 200-209 BS was used like that for months with a dedicated bot to organize it. No actual PvP would go on and if much at all did people left causing it to go dead.
Just because a BS runs doesn't make it a success. It supposedly was to be a place to PvP. So if people go not looking to PvP and avoid it when inside, that's not working as intended. If those not looking to PvP discourage people that want to PvP from going in, that's not working as intended. Having all these things not related to PvP in BSs is the cause of that. It may get some people to go but they aren't going to PvP and that is taking away from a place meant for PvP.
FC stated they added BSs thinking there was an active interest in it and people would go for just the fun of PvP alone. They were wrong as not enough were interested right from the start. There are PvP venues in other games to help provide an easy way for those interested in it to get some PvP. Although AO is not other games and also most certainly lacks the population of WoW, AoC or other such games.
In AO the strength of some PvP twink at the top or near the top of a BS range versus some I'm just trying to get VP and levels char can be huge. The PvP twink can just plain obliterate the other player without even trying. Even a group of VP farming leveling chars will get splattered by one good PvP twink. So tell me how that is or should be fun to either.
Now take two or more solid PvP twinks and put them in a fairly even match. Everyone needs to struggle to survive and beat the other guy(s) making for a much more interesting fight. That was clearly the intent of BSs and the reason for the number of participants requirement. Between those two scenarios which do you think a PvP venue should try to encourage?
Personally, I don't do BS unless I have the daily running.
Why? Because I *HATE* PvP in this game; And I hate the BS PvP even more. If I'm going to spend ~20 mins on something I hate doing, I want to be guaranteed having a reward for it.
I'm pretty sure quite a few feel this way.
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Right after launch people used to log multiple alts that sat in BSs to gather VP or just get it going since there was no AFK kicks. They teamed people out of the lvl range of a BS then signed up as a team which brought even those out of the BS lvl range in resulting in that option being dropped. Neuts didn't get set to their selected side properly for a year or so making tabbing messy. They could also leave and sign up for the winning side in time to cash in for a good while. Queue balancing was horrid resulting in at times seemingly 2:1 or so matches early on. People still complain about issues in BSs like the step fouling up pets, sync making melee profs cry, occasional lag and so on.
After launch people bitched in the LE forums about how BSs weren't running that well since they thought everyone was farming VP in missions which at the time were easy all the way through with high drop rates giving lots of VP. Although LE missions were only like that for about a week before drops there got nerfed when difficulty options got added. So that rather points to how active BSs were from an early stage right there. Within a month of launch FC came along and admitted BSs weren't getting the volume of use they expected so were upping the VP rewards in them in the hopes of drawing in more people.
There have always been problems in BSs. High numbers of intended and active participants generally was never one of them.
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Right around launch when things are shiny and new people go around trying everything. There were also tricks to get it going like teaming those not in the BS lvl range then signing up as a team and with no AFK kicks you could log multiple alts to sit around. Shortly there after though that changed. Within a month of launch even FC was admitting BSs weren't getting all that much activity and they wanted to try upping the VP reward to get people to go.
Given the choice to make a PvP zone more focused towards interesting fights or easy roll over the opponents with no effort ones which would you pick?
That is all very situational. If you stack things in your favour and people know what to do you should win in either PvP or PvM. There is no if it's PvM it's always an easy ride while if it's PvP you need to work at it. If your opponent, player or mob, stands no chance of winning the outcome is obvious. If your opponent, player or mob, is difficult with some tricks and you're at least fairly evenly matched you or they may win.
Last edited by PhoenixOfAges; Aug 14th, 2010 at 20:34:17.
You still don't get what I'm saying. I will state this as clearly as I can now one last time and then that's it. No more ping pong
1. You don't know what my point is better than me. How could you possibly..
2. It's not speculation. Why are things like VP in AO and pvp points in WOW and AoC and so on in these games? What is the purpose? It's there to attract more people. Something which I term "gasoline". It makes PvP more interesting in general and adds something to work towards even when the PvP itself is repetitive. Gasoline is there as ONE of many factors that keeps instanced PvP from becoming deserted. Before you start saying that this is "speculation", you need to answer me why any developer would add this reward system to instanced PvP in any MMO. If it's not to directly or indirectly attract more people, then what is it for? You seemed to agree with me about what this reward system was for in other mmo's but you seem to disagree with me that the same exact system is for the same thing in AO..just because you don't think it works as well in AO. So again, I gotta say that how effective it is is not part of the point I was making. I'm just telling you what the concept is about since you seemed confused about it.
3. As I said before, how EFFECTIVE these "gasoline"-things are to any MMO is besides the point I was making. Why? Because you asked "what is the point of VP" and then I gave the only logical answer that anyone could possibly give in that context. It's there to attract people and to keep people interested for longer and thus keep instanced PvP populated for longer. Whether or not this works effectively in AO is besides the point because I'm giving you a "1+1=2" answer here, not a review of how effective VP is as a means of keeping BS running.
You are reviewing VP, I'm just telling you what it is. I'm talking about the concept, you are concentrating on what effect the current implementation of that concept has in AO. There's a difference
And just as a sidenote, I do think VP has a big effect on BS in AO. A lot of people do BS to get VP and if those people weren't there, then BS wouldn't run as often. *shrug*
Last edited by Wrangeline; Aug 14th, 2010 at 20:44:56.
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Means wants to find out what the majority of players think it will take to make AO great again, and gets suggestions from the PVP crowd instead:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0n2v...eature=related
After all, it's pretty obvious that all they want isa place they can fight without being zerged by a force outnumbering them 10:1.
fixed:For neutrals to quit fighting against them in BS then stealing loot by rolling in the same raidbots
fixed better:A place where they can find other people and fight all of them
Fixed for good
Last edited by Keldros; Aug 14th, 2010 at 21:45:40.
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I don't think people should be forced to join the PvP playfield. They should be able to get there just like other people not queued should be able to get there. Actually it would annoy me, since I often sign up for a BS in order to get some VP ( and fun ) and then wander of to try some other things in the meantime until it gets started. Having the choice between signing up and having to wait one hour for a round in the PVP playfield or not signing up.Originally Posted by Kintaii
On the other hand,
If you force me into the mines ( ) I'd like to be able to get some considerable VP, in relation to a BS round. This way I'd be fine with being forced in and out since it involves both shooting stuff and getting the wanted reward even if I decide after 45 minutes of mayhem that I have enough.
Talking about the BS: Please never consider the Red vs Blue thing. This is still a MMORPG. 0% Anarchy is fine, pointless red vs blue seems way over the top to me. Besides, it takes only 12 people to start a BS, with neuts being interchangeable. That's not that much, really.
Spreading the players out more seems counter-productive to the whole idea behind the battlestations. On a second thought I'm for the original 'lobby' idea, with regulations that bypass the possible leave & rejoin issue, like lock-out nanoprograms bestowed upon leaving the PvP playfield for the BS in the NCUs which only get cleared after completing a round on said station (or run out after the desired "penalty" time. ).
"Battlestations" could be joined by the appropriate terminal in the future, with a 'game' starting according to the player numbers. Add one, two different Battlefields to the plan and this could appeal to more people.
((Spot for pipe-dream: Get a (surface) Vehicle Warfare map out with a retweaked Mech System, allowing for some customization and more interactive combat possibilites maybe in form of selectable buffs, actions and on-use equipment.))
edit:
I actually also like the idea behind camelot, where both sides can struggle for the precious. What about another one? Put a use to Will to Fight?
Last edited by Ikarus; Aug 15th, 2010 at 02:07:26.
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I can wake up in the morning and think to my self, "Im going to break AO today" and should i managed to do it, I'll get rewarded for it.