Friday with Means - September 3rd, 2010 - Battlestation changes

[Ocene]

I don't know how many years it have been since you've been to BS Ocene, but it's AR proffs that are dominating, not caster proffs (And please don't make me repeat "nerf traders", we all know they are OP so no bother discussing it).

Whos going to suffer? MPs, crats, fixers, docs, engis.

I'm in BS pretty much daily, both TL7 and a bit less TL5.

I'm working on a 170 ranged advy for notum wars, as well as a 200 MP for the new BS .

I'm in TL7 BS with all sort of toons.

It's true that there are tons of AR profs in there, can't deny that.

[Ocene]

Yeah, so again, what's the problem. If BS is changed to level 200 and you want to do BS PVP, you make a level 200 twink, kinda just like how you make other twinks for other levels for other things in the game. I don't understand what all the /cry is about, except from NW people that want to PWN everyone in BS with NW twinks ... which won't happen or never really has.

FC isn't enlightening us enough? That's pretty funny really. What information do you think they have they aren't giving you? I think that's alot of smoke and mirrors ... people like you wouldn't be satisfied unless Means gave you a minute to minute schedule of his bowel movements, just so you could tell him when to check the forums on his Blackberry to read your dribble while he takes a dump.

I'm a fanboi? Sorry, I'm just realistic.

OK for once, I think I'm in agreement with Obtena here.

New challenges, new projects, new fun, that's been AO for years.

[Ebondevil]

Ebondevil:

Most people that have played AO longer than 12 minutes would disagree with you that lvling is the better choice, as I said above, twinkin is 99% of the point most people play AO. Be it frooby sub/totw/fore twinks, Sector twinks or PvP twinks, it doesnt matter, no one would play AO if you couldnt twink.

I wasn't saying that leveling is the better choice, far from it, why a lot of the time people don't bother to level. My point is that levelling should be advantageous. Currently it's not.

You have to realize that lvlers like yourself is the minority of AOs playerbase, and the masses should always decide what happens to the community, theres a reason that less than 8% of AOs playerbase is TL7, after getting a char to TL7 you realize how boring TL7 is and start making twinks!

Everyone levels, and theoretically a 220 capped xp/research toon should be the eventual goal of every character, that it isn't shows how broken some things are with the game. There should always be an incentive to gain that next level until you can't gain any more.

I have nothing against twinking itself and I agree it's one of the great things about AO, I frequently twink my characters, but currently as far as I'm concerned the gap between the twinks and the non twinks is far too large and it's a deterrent to people enjoying aspects of the game.

I agree twinking should be encouraged and should give an advantage, but it shouldn't give as big an advantage as it currently does.

[Obtena]

And I see another reality : with all the TL5 twink giving up, TL5 NW will be even more dead that it is atm.

Sounds good because TL5 BS was never about TL5 NW anyways.

[Ocene]

Sounds good because TL5 BS was never about TL5 NW anyways.

Again true. Many NW TL5 twinks, never go to BS...some BS twinks go to NW however.

[Armus]

Everyone levels, and theoretically a 220 capped xp/research toon should be the eventual goal of every character, that it isn't shows how broken some things are with the game..

Where does it say that exactly? Oh yeah, nowhere, it's just your opinion.
What a game should be about is FUN. And ppl will determine on their own how and where they have most fun. It's not your place to try to tell everyone what the point of the game is.

There should always be an incentive to gain that next level until you can't gain any more...

Care to try to prove that is the case?

I'll save you some time, you can't. That's just your opinion again.

I have nothing against twinking itself and I agree it's one of the great things about AO, I frequently twink my characters, but currently as far as I'm concerned the gap between the twinks and the non twinks is far too large and it's a deterrent to people enjoying aspects of the game.

I agree twinking should be encouraged and should give an advantage, but it shouldn't give as big an advantage as it currently does.

Take away the immense possibilities in the twinking department and AO isn't AO anymore. Furthermore other mmo's are just plain better in every way except for the char creation. Nerf that as you suggest and ao will have nothing to offer that other games don't do better.

[Mekh]

Take away the immense possibilities in the twinking department and AO isn't AO anymore. Furthermore other mmo's are just plain better in every way except for the char creation. Nerf that as you suggest and ao will have nothing to offer that other games don't do better.

I agree with that to a certain extent... However imo the difference between a decent geared leveling toon and an all-out twink is FAR too big.

It removes the fun for new(er) players.

If the biggest gap between a decently geared new player and an all-out twink was like 10-25% when it comes to AR/evade/dodge/NR/nanoskills, then a lot more people would be interested in playing this game, and also participate in PvP.

Having the gap being a lot smaller then what it is now, would in no way remove the incentive to twink, it would just no longer be the complete I-WIN recipe that it is now.



EDIT:
In my opinion another of THE greatest aspects of AO is that you do not have to be end-game in order to enjoy the game and find lots of things to do.
It is one of the selling points I mention when I tell people about the game, and it is certainly also one of the points that get new people interested.

My points above about twinking does however destroy that completely when it comes to PvP.

I have never seen becoming 220/30/70 or something like that as a goal in itself... The only goal I see to playing a game is "having fun".
If that happens to be at lvl 1 then so be it, and good for that person as well as for everyone else.
It means that there is one more person playing the game, rather than being scared away at the HUGE amount of hours that lies in front of a toon that want to be competitive with other 220/30/70 toons, of which quite a large percentage of the population have played for years and have vast resources to draw upon when it comes to gearing/twinking their toon, which any new(er) player do not.

[ArienSky]

Obtena & Ebondevil = clueless fanbois?

First of, making the ranges bigger wont make the BS suddenly active. Ppl PvP at TL5 for a reason, it is the most balanced TL. With the new ranges, they will all be insanely imbalanced (except TL7 if the rebalancing don't fail(admit it, even if they manage to balance TL7, they arent going to be able to do that at every TL)). What FC should do is balance first, and not 99% of it at TL7.

Obtena:

People currently don't make lvl 200 tower twinks cause they get wtfpwned by lvl 220s (d'uh).
Many of the ppl you bash at for being angry, are angry because they are "caster" proffs, do you have any idea how much those proffs suck at TL6? It's IMPOSSIBLE to land drains/roots/snares/stuns/UBT/GTH etc. at that lvl, and since there has been no word of NR being balanced at that lvl, ppl freak out because the fear of their proff becoming useless.
No, not all us twinkers afford to have twinks at every single TL, also twinking is alot cheaper at 150-174 than at lvl 190-200.
People should not be punished for twinking, AO is based on twinking, people play AO for twinking, the only part of this game that is superior to other MMORPGs is the complexity of character building. If you haven't noticed, the other parts of this game is dull and shallow, even free MMOs have more and better raids dungeons etc. but for us AO players clicking on an item to make it equipped simply isnt satisfying enough, thus we twink, and it is the only part of AO that keeps it alive. (I bet that last part fried your fanboi brain, but it is the truth).

Ebondevil:

Most people that have played AO longer than 12 minutes would disagree with you that lvling is the better choice, as I said above, twinkin is 99% of the point most people play AO. Be it frooby sub/totw/fore twinks, Sector twinks or PvP twinks, it doesnt matter, no one would play AO if you couldnt twink. You have to realize that lvlers like yourself is the minority of AOs playerbase, and the masses should always decide what happens to the community, theres a reason that less than 8% of AOs playerbase is TL7, after getting a char to TL7 you realize how boring TL7 is and start making twinks!




I love AO, and have loved it for many many years. I can't imagine how you can play AO without twinking, ofc everyone have different taste, but twinking is AOs strong point, if you don't like twinking, why not play another game and leave us twinkers be? (No, I don't mind PvMers, I'm just very pissed atm(for good reasons)) Just cause you don't like twinking don't mean you should ruin the fun for the rest of us. Be relevant. When you want to change something, listen to the opinions of the people that actually uses what you're changing. Stop taking advice from PvMers when it comes to PvP!

BS = PvP related. PvPers like making twinks. Twinkers don't like these changes. <- Take the hint

Balanced or not, PvPers will always demolish PvMers in PvP, no matter what you do, PvMers will always whine about PvP.

When it comes to changing PvM stuff I'd love to hear your opinions. But when we're talking about PvP changes, please don't input your PvM opinions, they arent relevant.

Will you please run for the next professional election?
Your points are logical and hence valid.
Way better than the purely vindictive reasoning others use..


AO was made to have 200 lvls, that was what it was balanced for.
Because of stat-inflation it has shrunk to 170ish, if not 150 now adays.

What items/armors are there over QL 200? Have a look and you will quickly see more choices below than above.

I see reality. 200 BS is coming. Deal with it.

I see someone that does not care about fairness, but rather to stick up to a rule a bully made, to stay part of that bully's gang..

Defending something with "because he said so" is not an argument, and far from a logical one.

Give me all your credits Obtena.
Why?
Because I say so.

Does that seem reasonable to you?
I guess it does to you, since you reason that way
You can find me at Fair Trade in Borealis.

Kind Regards
-Ariensky

[Lusos101]

AHAHAHAHAH @ Arien.

Love the argumentation to defend your (you and them) advantageous "status quo". Facts however are really mean things. Facts like a dwindling population. PvP that doesnt exist (NW) or is totally dependent on PvMers (BS).


But you guys are really amateurs. Still a lot to learn about whinning. I saw a post once (before the BR nerf) explaining in excruciating, higly technical detail, why the trader profession was the most nerfest profession in PvP and the many many improvements that where essential to make it barely viable to play. It made me cry in desperation and swear to never roll a trader for PvP. Sadest thing.

[Armus]

I agree with that to a certain extent... However imo the difference between a decent geared leveling toon and an all-out twink is FAR too big..

That's your opinion and I submit that you are wrong.

See how silly argumentation based solely on opinions is?

It removes the fun for new(er) players.

For me it had quite the opposite effect. When I had just upgraded I used to hang out alot in WA. Before FC decided to infest it with vanguards it used to be a place bustling with activity. All kinds of ppl met there and there was always a few omnis in sneak waiting for their moment.

Sure I got owned many, many times there. But that didn't make me give up and become a "pvmer". It inspired me to work hard to get the best gear and best possible setup for my toons. And ever since that has been the way I've played. I'd rather have a few active toons that are good than 3 acounts full of half assed gimps.

So no, it certainly didn't remove the fun for me. Sure it took alot of farming and work to get my stuff. But it's worth it once it's done.
You could make pvm 10 times easier, since you pvmers are clearly complaining that pvm is too hard for ppl. So hard that they can't pvp!
But I ask you, if there is no effort needed, won't the rewards also be smaller?

On a sidenote. The pvp community protested against the changes to WA back then because it knew it would kill that place. FC persisted because the pvpers apparently scared newcomers (!)
A few years later there is nothing but crickets in WA, just as the community said. And I wonder if more new players were "scared off" by a plce full of ppl at all levels or if more players leave now because they are sent to a ghost town.

Personally I'm sure of the answer to that. But hey it doesn't matter much what the customer thinks in this case.

If the biggest gap between a decently geared new player and an all-out twink was like 10-25% when it comes to AR/evade/dodge/NR/nanoskills, then a lot more people would be interested in playing this game, and also participate in PvP..

Just one question here: Are you a communist?

Having the gap being a lot smaller then what it is now, would in no way remove the incentive to twink,...

It sure would for me. Spend 100 hours farming and twinking to gain 10-25% over someone who does next to nothing? Not a chance in hell!

it would just no longer be the complete I-WIN recipe that it is now...

It's only i-win against ppl who have no skills, that refuse to learn and are totally underequipped.

EDIT:
In my opinion another of THE greatest aspects of AO is that you do not have to be end-game in order to enjoy the game and find lots of things to do.
It is one of the selling points I mention when I tell people about the game, and it is certainly also one of the points that get new people interested.

You can enjoy most parts of the game with almost zero effort yes. Especially if you are a zergbot animal. Those bots breed whiners who want someone else to do all the work for them.

My points above about twinking does however destroy that completely when it comes to PvP.

So, like.. if I play football with my friends (I suck majorly at it while they've played for 20 years) and I say to them: hey you can't run too fast, you can't shoot too hard, you may only shoot 10-25% harder than me. Or else I'll start crying cuz then it's no fun for me!
Do you really think anyone would NOT think I was a complete moron?

I have never seen becoming 220/30/70 or something like that as a goal in itself... The only goal I see to playing a game is "having fun".
If that happens to be at lvl 1 then so be it, and good for that person as well as for everyone else.
It means that there is one more person playing the game,
.

Great, you're for diversity. You must be for active lowbie ranges then. Not just 200's pocketed by 220's.

rather than being scared away at the HUGE amount of hours that lies in front of a toon that want to be competitive with other 220/30/70 toons, of which quite a large percentage of the population have played for years and have vast resources to draw upon when it comes to gearing/twinking their toon, which any new(er) player do not.

There are plenty of 1st person shooters that require zero work on your chars before you can play. You have the same chance as everyone else in those games.

But those games aren't AO. AO is hard core. Always was. You may change it into something much easier. But then there are already much newer and better games like that.

There would be no reason to play this ugly, old, buggy, expensive game if it weren't for the ability to customize your toons more or less freely.

The End

[drops]

So, like.. if I play football with my friends (I suck majorly at it while they've played for 20 years) and I say to them: hey you can't run too fast, you can't shoot too hard, you may only shoot 10-25% harder than me. Or else I'll start crying cuz then it's no fun for me!
Do you really think anyone would NOT think I was a complete moron?

That makes sense, you can't cry in front of your friends so you cry and go emo here (as an anonymous person) for exactly the same reasons. That's why everyone thinks you (as an anonymous person) are a complete [what you said].

[Anarrina]

Knock off the personal insults people. You can discuss the proposed changes without being rude about it.

[Rktim]

oh come on... is there realy someone pointing a gun on your forehead forcing you to get ofab ??

PvM gives you better armor (AI) or decent enough armor for PvM (miy, biodome, DB etcetc)

There only 1 reason that "PvMer" feel compeled to farm BS and get farmed... it's that it is easier to get chained killed and farm VP, than to actualy do PvM ...

/discuss

This.. Totally... All the way threw.. If i where a PvMer on my Soldier i wouldn't have one single pice of OFAB, the only OFAB i would consider would be Gloves.. until 220... But then i might as well get Chosen gloves.. so... no.. no ofab (CC or electro gloves at 220)

[Suicidal]

I sure hope next professional voting will be done in game.. we have few professionals who actually use their brain, rest (and most of them) are forum trolls or some unknowns that nobody have seen since they got in to professional program.

[Warhead]

I just heard from somebody who was at the Funcom day in Oslo that the proposed changes should no longer be considered a done deal (despite Means' words suggested it). So, if you leveled your twink to 200, you just might have made a mistake...

[Armus]

That makes sense, you can't cry in front of your friends so you cry and go emo here (as an anonymous person) for exactly the same reasons. That's why everyone thinks you (as an anonymous person) are a complete [what you said].

Oh noes.. you called me emo! Am I supposed to get scured and run away with my tail between me legs now?

Sorry to disappoint but I'm immune to stupid non arguments like that.
Try again if you have something valid to add to the discussion.
Otherwise put a sock in it.

[Armus]

I just heard from somebody who was at the Funcom day in Oslo that the proposed changes should no longer be considered a done deal (despite Means' words suggested it). So, if you leveled your twink to 200, you just might have made a mistake...

I have an old tl5 agent, ai22, 1kboard, maxed research and a set of 300 css laying around. Despite what ppl like Obtena thinks I could have it ready and kicking @ level 200 inside a few weeks.

But what's the fun when your opponents are level 150-160 ish mostly?
It's like playing in the little league as an adult. You'd have to be really childish inside to enjoy it.

[PhoenixOfAges]

oh come on... is there realy someone pointing a gun on your forehead forcing you to get ofab ??

PvM gives you better armor (AI) or decent enough armor for PvM (miy, biodome, DB etcetc)

There only 1 reason that "PvMer" feel compeled to farm BS and get farmed... it's that it is easier to get chained killed and farm VP, than to actualy do PvM ...

/discuss

What is "best" depends on what you're after and trying to do with a given char. At earlier levels when you can't afford to max all your base abilities an armour type that offers a mix of bonuses with the same ability requirements can be advantageous. Various buffs on OFAB can far exceed those on other armours. That applies not only to weapon and nano skills but other things like abilities and trade skills.

Then people keep going on about how easy PvM supposedly is as most things are easy with a decked out 220. That content is mostly older and not aimed at 220 twinks. Prior to 220 gearing up for PvM as best you can to see how much you can take on can be a big part of the enjoyment of playing for various people, self included. Just because you may not be after that does not mean others aren't.

As a for instance in all this I'm equipping a number of parts of QL 300 combined and other difficult items to get on a level 200 char. To get that all on at that level the way I want it the various bonuses on different parts of OFAB will be required. Although I have no intent to do any PvP with it once I'm done, it's for the upcoming APF and other things. That's what I'm after, that's what I'm doing with it and getting OFAB is part of it either to use in the end or to get what I will use on.

People love to say things like you did as to why others don't need OFAB. Although that whole "need" thing is nonexistent as in a game no one really needs to do anything, including play. People just want this and people want that in a game to do what it is they want in said game and that applies to everyone in it for every reason they're playing the game. Just because you don't agree with the motivations a person has for wanting OFAB for their char doesn't discredit their desire to have it.

[Gridpain]

ok ...

You conviced me ...

LE mish, after the last patches are very easy (if you skip the boss) solo, and give realy decent VP now ...

so ?

[PhoenixOfAges]

ok ...

You conviced me ...

LE mish, after the last patches are very easy (if you skip the boss) solo, and give realy decent VP now ...

so ?

I'm sure you're being sarcastic but a few points on this. Yes mission VP is at least somewhat better than it was and mobs excluding most bosses are weaker than they were (they did adjust master of PM). Mission VP although is still gained by way of random drops. As a result while some missions give more VP others can still give very little.

LE mission changes are fairly recent. The importance of that is what more in missions means is if you do them often enough over time as you level you should at least get a modest chunk of the VP you're after that way. This although is something that will have more of an affect in time when people make new chars. Not so much for those that were level X already when that came along.

Another thing is we now have daily missions for XP/SK, will soon have ones for AXP plus a new 150-200 APF with dailies, there will be changes to the old APFs and Arid is better for AXP at level 201+. What this means is we now level a good bit more quickly than we used. Also once that's all in place LE missions will be even less valued for AXP at all levels and one could easily hit AI level cap well before one gets the VP they're after as I have often enough over the years.

The problem with VP since they started adjusting it very early on was the tremendous difference in gains which not only still exist but are now worse than ever. Meanwhile those that spend plenty of time in BSs have often started threads to complain that they have no use for the massive VP pools they have for ages. It's always been more an issue of time than anything. Either possibly spend just a few days getting slaughtered in BSs or a number of weeks to multiple months chewing through aliens in LE missions on AI level capped chars. It's not about easy or not, it's about a significant difference in the time required to get your VP when that is really all you're after.