Breed-perks = profession perks.

[tweeeek]

i only sort of skimmed this thread but from what i understand you are talking about how some profs have more useful perk lines then others.

and i agree, but i think that every prof/breed should have way more useful perklines then they can ever use, as well as breed perkline sbeing useful(theres 1 useful perkline for every breed for every prof pretty much)

instead of profs now who have between 2 and 6 useful perklines as well as 1-2 ai ones(this doesnt count general perks), if every prof had more useful perklines then they could use, i think it would make the game more interesting, instead of 90% of a prof having the same perk setup you would get variation.

[Loucretia]

I agree with your overall point.

While "most" breed perks have been insignificant in the past, they will add a lot more with the proposed changes, and this will bring an imbalance across some professions.

The only way I can see that being fixed is to have the current "cookie cutter" AI perks amalgamated into 2 lines, but that would involve combining apples and pears ( e.g. AR and nano skills etc ).

Personally, I dislike the proposed changes as I suspect they will end up with the "Breed A is the only choice for Prof A" scenario again.

I'd prefer breed perks to be less powerful, to avoid that situation.

[PhoenixOfAges]

People have been talking a lot about these new breed-perks. Personally I'm not really a fan of the concept as I think breed differences should remain with basic stats and not with perks as well.

I completely agree. For instance with all the many stat buff items and other buff items really any breed can get all or just about all the top stuff on for any prof, it's just easier for some than others. At one time people would go with breed A as it made getting certain items on for their prof possible. That doesn't really matter anymore. So maybe they could add some new prof or general things with insanely high ability reqs that only certain breeds could get on or just some new breed locked or combined breed and prof locked items if they want to make breed selection more important again. Then I'd really rather see them strip perk actions from breed perks and maybe add some new AI prof or prof group perk lines for some profs.



As you said some profs just have less AI perks to play with so can't really afford to use the breed ones. I also have a trader and go the same route you noted, prof evades, general weapons skills and general nano skills. With my MA there's room for a breed perk line though, at least part of one.

Atroxes also spend less IP on base stats than any other breed.

This is true, sort of. They do spend the least total IP to max all their abilities. At the same time though they also have the least total abilities at 220. Opi gets the most total ability points at 220 and when averaged out spend the least IP per ability point. Only Atrox spend less total IP than Opi to max all their abilities at 220 (220k or so IP difference) while Soli spend the most IP (about 580k more than Trox) and are roughly tied in how many total ability points they have at 220 with NM.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

A trader can't wear combined armour with supple and arith.

So, which do you choose?

Clearly, one type is less important than the other type.

So, obviously you dont need 10 AI perks wrapped up in 100 more AR either.

case closed.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

It's a valid discussion, wrangle, but, I think people are entitled to their interpretation, even if it doesn't agree with your expected or wanted feedback.

The point I was trying to make is this:

There are professional choices, for everyone.

A trader can accumulate some 250 skill+150 AAO plus 250 skill+150 AAO plus whatever the top proc is (lets just say 150 skill as a conservative estimate).

that is 650 skill and 300 AAO.
Ok, now, you also have corporate protection and the other nasty AAO buff/AAD buff can't remember which, but don't they also add a whole whack of like 200or 300 AAD and AAO?
so, say 650 skill and 500 AAO and -200 AAD on your target.

Thats of course presuming you can land your nasty 190NR checking debuff.

Still, that is 1350 gain in effective AR.

So, why would you focus on weapon AR when your obvious strength is in nanos?

Also, with the big AS nerf coming, won't normal damage account for a lot more, thus relieving you of the percieved need to twink up your Aimed shot skill?

Sorry to focus on traders, but since I presume that is the point you argue from, I would assume that that is your main concern.

As for other profs, I think they would and should equally weigh out the benefit of requiring nano over weapon skill, and, I think each setup is likely worth of testing.

Keepers, for example are starting to choose CS over CM/CC, for the sheer fact that swapping buffing gear so often makes their life hell. (so I've heard).

In other words, There are even more factors at play: weapon skill vs nano skill vs professional breed perks vs convenience of play

So, I suppose it might be even more complex a decision than you originally thought.

[oldschools]

There's nothing here to disagree with. There's nothing here to interpret. It's just an attempt to get a better overview of a situation that DOES exist and there is no logic of math that can be used to say that it does not exist.

I for one am trying to interpret your quasi-lawyer speak.
Its a choice every have to make. If the breed perk arent good enough to warrant dropping what you preceive to be a mandatory perkline the dont pick it up. Its only going to be a problem if the breed perks become so good that they will be mandatory for everyone and in that case some professions will have to make a bigger sacrifice than others but thats unavoidable since some professions are more complex and have more 'important' skills they need to keep high.

imo the perk of being for example a soldier is having an easy time maximizing the profession compared to some professions that need to keep many more skills maxed to function at the same level. On the other hand soldiers are also of limited utility compared to those other professions.

mmorpgs has always been about tradeoffs and i dont see how this is any different. You want to keep your AR high? Keep shotty line or sacrifice it for OPI genome or whatever.

[wyldebeast]

Before the thread is closed, I'll just provide some of the kind of feedback I think Wrangle asked for in the OP.

I play a doc and keeper. To me, 2 extremes of the question at hand.

Doc is AI23 and has no AI perklines I need at all. Hardly any normal perklines either, for that matter.
At the moment I have CoNC 10, CoLA 10 and AItech 3 perked.
The nano skills from CoNC are just fluff. I have more than enough to cast all nano without them, and as I don't pvp, there's no much point in raising them too high. I mostly took the line to get some DD perks for pvm.
The AR from CoLA is nice, but again it's just for extra pvm DD. They aren't even needed to equip my pistols.
The AI tech 3 is definately fluff. There's no need for any AI armor on a doc and I don't use any items that require AI tech.
I could easily perk into 2 breed lines without any sacrifice.

The keeper is slightly different. He's AI25 and actually could use all the AI levels he can get. Pvm toon again, ofc
CoNC 10, CoHI 10, AItech3, Crusade 2.
CoNC because I'm trox the nano skills are needed to selfcast everything.
CoHI because of the added AR and DD perks.
AItech for AI armor. A keeper swaps a lot!
Crusade for DD atm, wish I could max it for extra survival.
I don't even have enough AI perks to max all I need if I was AI30. While I'd love the opi or soli breed perks on my keeper, I can't afford to give up any of the AI perks he has atm to gain them.

I definately feel left out on my keeper when looking at the brred perks, while at the same time feeling I have 100% access to any breed perks thrown my way on my doc. Makes me wonder what purpose these breed perks really have, but that's a discussion for another time...

[Anarrina]

I haven't made the decision to close the thread at this point, so there's no concern that the discussion will cut off at any point soon.

[lostlife]

I like PhoenixOfAges's idea on adding items with ridiculous base skill requirements (would require that the additions be substantial though to really encourage the players to choose the breed that fits there playstyle).

i think i know what wrangle is specificly trying to do

1. group a=2 breed perkliners, group b=2 breed perkliners+1 more perkline
2. incase of addition of breed perks: group a's bonus - (group b's bonus - group b's loss) = net loss of group b by comparison
3. group b's ability in battle - group a's ability in battle = net difference in ability

these are my solutions and are not connected to anything wrangle has posted while waiting for additional information

what should happen: if net difference in ability>net loss of group b by comparison then keep things the way they are, or add a bonus those in group b that need it
if net difference in ability<net loss of group b by comparison then make breed perks less important while giving breeds a seperate bonus that isnt related to ai perks, which is a whole new set of equations

those that are on whe "losing group's" side should have there professions placed specificly in the equation and evaluated if they need a boost or drop from that point, vice versa from the winning groups side. (that last bit seems like im just saying balance it, but what im really saying is balance it from the, 2 perkliners vs 3 perkliners balance solution point)

my argument against myself is that balance can start from other, more important, parts (like profession vs profession or even breed+profession vs breed+profession)

i have gained new respect for wrangle and her wall text things after making a mini one

[PhoenixOfAges]

Means said he wanted to make the breed you select more important again. As said earlier with that difference being perk actions only some profs can really see that affect. To those that have other important AI perks the now supposedly more important breed choice will have no effect at all. This is why something other than breed perk line perk actions only some could make use of would be more effective towards the goal of making your breed mean more again.