Friday with Means - July 10th, 2009 - Stims, Neutrals, Content and Vacation

[PhoenixOfAges]

Do LE mishes on alpha loot at tl3. You'll get nice amount of AXP, a decent run of VPs, and a good chance for reward (I think you still get token too?).

No it won't. Lvl 15 missions give about 30-80 VP with an average around 50 VP. Lvl 90 missions give about 50-140 VP with an average around 90 VP. That's a small VP difference given the mission lvl is six times higher. Split that up to six ways and it's a joke at best.

It'll be faster than the zero VPs you get from sitting outside a bs that never pops.

Only in relation to a zero VP gain would the previously mentioned option be preferable, which isn't saying much at all. Although you'd hit your AI lvl cap far far in advance of when you've collected all your VP. Even if you had taken all the VP in each mission unless you wanted very little you'd still cap out your AI lvl far in advance of the time you collected all your VP.

So do them the hard way then. My 60 soldier, 118 MP both can solo LE mishes without OSBs.

Most profs without too much trouble can solo self pulled till around the 60 mark and any decent pet prof can go to around lvl 100 or some ways into TL4. MPs would be in about the best shape due to the heal pet and if they go 1HB with an AAD shield while at full DEF. I even managed to solo the odd 150 mission where I didn't get a pod room with a lvl 150 MA. It just takes so long you'd be much better off with lower lvl missions. You're hardly claiming anything new or amazing but the VP gains in missions is still quite low and scales very badly.

I didn't say that was the norm.

You said it was the accepted way and how that is how people should do it to get their VP from mission. Such as towards the top of this one and in prior ones. Which again is not how they were suppose to be done. Just as what people have done with XP stims and do with OST teams is not as it should be done but many do it so it was considered accepted and the norm.

Hey guess what, learn to economise. ...

It's not just me, I'm just the regular. Many others start up threads asking for better PvM VP and/or other ways to get it as the system is not working well. Then you can get the items you mentioned just fine with some time. Go to Tara raids with your TL5, farm points, get the GPH. Some orgs do HI raids now and then so you could just get in on such a raid to get it. There is really only one way to get those items. FC didn't by design make multiple ways saying they all allowed a reasonable method of gains but then made one of them ludicrously better than the others. You're making irrelevant comparisons here.

Name them. Token grind is way worse for a single item you have to grind 3-4 weeks minimum or camp token gun mobs for days (/wrist-inducing).

Any time a new thread suggesting some change to LE types (which happen every so often) such sort of comments are made. There are some in the LE forum and many have shown up in the suggestions forum.

Then in regards to tokens they aren't too big of a problem and they've added additional ways to get them over time so you're not locked into just the one way. If you try power leveling to 220 then do all your token farming with guns to get a 2.5k board all at once then that's your problem. If you did it a bit here and there along the way and did some of the quests that give you clumps of tokens as well you'd find token grinding isn't that bad really.

Plus once it's done, it's done. You don't farm a 1k board then when you want to get a 2.5k board have to start back at zero, you just pick up where you left off. With the OFAB armour and weapons you do start back at square one having to get the VP and types all over again each time.

[Chrys]

No it won't. Lvl 15 missions give about 30-80 VP with an average around 50 VP.

And how much will a full set of ql25 ofab cost? That's what, less than 10 missions?

Lvl 90 missions give about 50-140 VP with an average around 90 VP. That's a small VP difference given the mission lvl is six times higher. Split that up to six ways and it's a joke at best.

But you don't need a full set by then. Some ofab parts are crap, worse before you Type them (which you have to mish for anyway). Some are not too bad, relative to the alternatives. As repeated to you multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple times, get something else if the grind's not worth it to you. There's tons of stuff that isn't value for time in this game. So skip it. In the time you spend doing that, you could get a single piece of AI armor that almost certainly is better than the one part of Ofab at that level instead.

Only in relation to a zero VP gain would the previously mentioned option be preferable, which isn't saying much at all. Although you'd hit your AI lvl cap far far in advance of when you've collected all your VP. Even if you had taken all the VP in each mission unless you wanted very little you'd still cap out your AI lvl far in advance of the time you collected all your VP.

At tl2 and early tl3 maybe, but only because early AI levels are dead easy to get. At tl4, it's a LOT of mishing to reach, say ai14 (accessible at 120). I can't remember how many alien kills my MP did to reach AI 13 (some of it done the hard way with raids), but it's well more than 5k. At 4 VP per kill (not all drop clumps, but you often get multiples off some corpses and a stack off the boss) if you did 3k from LE mishes (prolly what it takes to get from AI 9-14), that's your entire set there. Is the grind worth it? Hell no unless you're building a PVP twink. For a levelling twink, you don't need those AI levels that early, you can get by just fine in SL/RK armor, etc. etc. Again with a megaphone in your deaf ears: there's plenty, plenty grind out there that isn't necessary at this level, not worth the time, etc. etc. yet nobody but you cares about it. Why, we still haven't got a clue. Go farm some predator, takes a couple hours for a full set and you can move it between your toons as and when you need and lasts a good 100 levels. Doesn't get much easier than that.

Most profs without too much trouble can solo self pulled till around the 60 mark and any decent pet prof can go to around lvl 100 or some ways into TL4. MPs would be in about the best shape due to the heal pet and if they go 1HB with an AAD shield while at full DEF. I even managed to solo the odd 150 mission where I didn't get a pod room with a lvl 150 MA. It just takes so long you'd be much better off with lower lvl missions. You're hardly claiming anything new or amazing but the VP gains in missions is still quite low and scales very badly.

So do them in a team, the way they were designed to be done. Ohnoes whine about VP gain too small inc (Clue: You'll probably be the only one in your team that's desperately clawing at every last clump).

You said it was the accepted way and how that is how people should do it to get their VP from mission. Such as towards the top of this one and in prior ones. Which again is not how they were suppose to be done. Just as what people have done with XP stims and do with OST teams is not as it should be done but many do it so it was considered accepted and the norm.

I don't know if English is your first language but "Acceptable" != "Accepted". "Acceptable" means people do it and it gets them by ok. "Accepted" means people do it and that's how they expect to do it.

All I can say is: it works. So do all the alternative armors. They work. But your bug up your arse about Ofab is really unfathomable. Get something else.

It's not just me, I'm just the regular. Many others start up threads asking for better PvM VP and/or other ways to get it as the system is not working well.

Quote the ones who say VPs are the worst grind in this game. Come on, that was your claim, not mine.

Then you can get the items you mentioned just fine with some time. Go to Tara raids with your TL5, farm points, get the GPH. Some orgs do HI raids now and then so you could just get in on such a raid to get it. There is really only one way to get those items. FC didn't by design make multiple ways saying they all allowed a reasonable method of gains but then made one of them ludicrously better than the others. You're making irrelevant comparisons here.

"Ludicrous" is, as has been pointed out to you many times, sometimes with colourful metaphors, your opinion. The multiple ways exist. They're not that bad. There's even shortcuts to doing it that you refuse to take. And yet you still cry.

Any time a new thread suggesting some change to LE types (which happen every so often) such sort of comments are made. There are some in the LE forum and many have shown up in the suggestions forum.

So it should be easy for you to quote me the people who call VPs the worst grind in this game.

Then in regards to tokens they aren't too big of a problem and they've added additional ways to get them over time so you're not locked into just the one way. If you try power leveling to 220 then do all your token farming with guns to get a 2.5k board all at once then that's your problem. If you did it a bit here and there along the way and did some of the quests that give you clumps of tokens as well you'd find token grinding isn't that bad really.

Plus once it's done, it's done. You don't farm a 1k board then when you want to get a 2.5k board have to start back at zero, you just pick up where you left off. With the OFAB armour and weapons you do start back at square one having to get the VP and types all over again each time.

Hey, do VPs a little at a time. Don't spend them too quickly. Think about whether the item is worth the cost of acquiring. Welcome to MMO-strategising 101. Once you're tl7 it's done and you don't have to do them again. Hell most of the TL7s have several hundred thousand VPs they don't have the slightest clue what to do with.

[Lheann]

This is a wall of text. Mostly directed at one person. Sorry if anyones eyes are hurt by it.

Chrys,

Get a clue. Look at this thread. Look at how many people you are attacking on this and you will see that there is more than one person that thinks VP grind is messed up. And no I will not list the names of the people stating it in this thread. You already know them as for the last two days you have quoted and flamed all of them.

You once more used the use your high level toon argument. For the uncountable time, we are argueing from the stand point that a player does not have a TL7 toon to farm for them. At least I am.

In another thread you talked about helping a returning player. Had you not helped them their leveling experience that day would have not been nearly as good. Prime example of why the grinds are messed up. You even made a few good points in that thread. But I come here and you are all attack people and telling us to use TL7 support or OST blah blah blah.

You suggested people grind out predator. Ok with no TL7 to farm it for them a TL3/4 toon is never going to outdamge the 2 to 5 TL7's that are OD-Festing for the bosses that drop it. Again the suggestion is total fail unless they already have a TL7 toon.

As for the OFAB issue. After 20+ toons at various twink levels on the live servers and about 50+ toons on the testserver I want to level a toon to a twink point via OFAB. Because no other reason than I want too. And that is more than enough reason considering it is a game. So the grind of trying that is so stupid high it is now a failed project. So if anyone else wants to do ofab over other armor that is their choice. respect it and move on please.

As for the 10 missions for QL25 ofab when you might get 80 VP in one mission. sorry not happening. Full set with 2 weapons for a dual wield class is going to run you just a tad over 1200 VP. Again best case 15 missions more like 18-20. Or 5ish runs that your sides wins of the 20-49 BS. Of course that means waiting to level 20 and heck a level 17 can get 25 ofab on easy. Now at level 50 you need 1000vp just for attunement devices and as you state some OFAB pieces are really nice. but at ql50 they get expensive. At Ql75 you really are needing BS to effectively farm the VP. And I refuse to accept your use a TL7 to farm it as accepted. Since I do not accept it the idea is not 100% accepted and I am sure more than myself feel that way.

As you state there is token grind that you seem to think is so bad. Did you do a 1k board back when it took 1000+ missions and tokens were worth 1 and always 1? I know that pain and can say FC has made token grind pretty easy and the number of token sources now is stupid. I can count 6 methods for tokens now all of which are viable and continue to be dowe every day on RK.

VP options by level: At level 1 to 49 you have LE missions 75% of the time as only active way for VP. At level 50-74 you have both (LE and BS). At level 75-149 you are back to missions only. 150-174 has two ways. And then 175 to 199 has one way. Level 200-209 is nice as a lot of time on RK1 that BS is being farmed for VP under agreement. At this level range I have seen VP gains of 15k an hour. By far the best VP gains I have ever seen in game. At level 210-220 we have an active BS to enjoy and VP gains are very nice. LE missions are just a side thought. The issue here is that level 1 to 149 has one really active BS and that leaves LE for all the other levels.

I recently ran an LE mission that I got 12 VP total for including the boss drops. The worse I have ever seen. It just drove home that each mob has the same % drop rate and that the streaky random number generator of AO can screw you over. As a new player trying LE missions for first time that would piss me off and make me rethink why I playing the game or had paid for it at a minimum. And players canceling is a $$$ reason FC will look at whether you think it is important or not. If they determine that $$$ can be generated by making the game have less grind and more content have better/more viable means of access then the $$$ will always win.

Means had to make a decision about XP stims that pissed a bunch of folks off. That was not a $$$ driven decision. Player retention and playerbase growth are and you can bet that the grind is going to get easier and things you think are fine and should be left alone are going to get changed.

Welcome to the new AO. You can help form the future with good ideas (and you have had a few) or you can keep flaming everyone. I survived Release, 12.6 and 18.1 so I will be here to see AO grow and change. I just choose to accept change is coming and offer suggestions vice barking at the moon.

[Chrys]

You once more used the use your high level toon argument. For the uncountable time, we are argueing from the stand point that a player does not have a TL7 toon to farm for them. At least I am.

New players most certainly don't "need" Ofab. They don't "need" any armor post-SL for that matter, nor do they even "need" most SL armors. So if you don't have a high level toon, or if it's your first toon, you're not going to be at the very top of every single item grind, nor should you expect to be, which is the problem here. First day playing MMOs?

In another thread you talked about helping a returning player. Had you not helped them their leveling experience that day would have not been nearly as good. Prime example of why the grinds are messed up. You even made a few good points in that thread. But I come here and you are all attack people and telling us to use TL7 support or OST blah blah blah.

Because the problem isn't the grind, the problem is between the chair and the keyboard.

Don't expect to have everything in every form in the way you like it. I've explained that you have options that you refuse, that the grind isn't as bad as you say, that there's a world of really good alternatives that you refuse to consider, etc. etc. Get over yourselves.

You suggested people grind out predator. Ok with no TL7 to farm it for them a TL3/4 toon is never going to outdamge the 2 to 5 TL7's that are OD-Festing for the bosses that drop it. Again the suggestion is total fail unless they already have a TL7 toon.

So grind out 2 basic sets of alien armor, sell it, and buy your predator. Do you have a clue how easy it is to make money for the stuff that lowbies need this day? If you missed out the XP stick boat (where you could easily have made 100-200m per day), basic alien armor (full set: 15-20m; time needed: 1 hour if you slack) offers far better rewards for time than anything when the rest of us were that level. TL7 and TL5 are a different matter, but let's cross that bridge when they come to it. I used to be a lowbie clicksaver farmer so I can tell you for a fact the most I ever sold in those days was about 200k (cushions, treatment rifle) a piece. I was then rich enough to buy a full set of tl4 symbs when I defroobed. And shortly after with AI farming I became very rich (for a tl4). Now you can spend 5-10 mins and sell a piece of ai basic armor (no expansions actually needed) for 2-3 million (and 5-8 for the harder to get parts). Pred armor is 30-40m a set, max 45m if you're desperate. Like many others, the first time I tried to get pred the hard way, I had to give up because of TL7s camping it. No matter, I bought the entire set (back then, for about 60m) when my main was still tl5 because I could earn things via other means.

As stated, problem is between the keyboard and the chair.

As for the OFAB issue. After 20+ toons at various twink levels on the live servers and about 50+ toons on the testserver I want to level a toon to a twink point via OFAB. Because no other reason than I want too. And that is more than enough reason considering it is a game.

Oh I want ql310 RK armor and gun and a ql300 turn spirit weapon for no other reason than I (ME ME ME ME ME) want to but waaah do you know how hard those are to get waah QQ?

So the grind of trying that is so stupid high it is now a failed project. So if anyone else wants to do ofab over other armor that is their choice. respect it and move on please.

/hand /care /talk

As for the 10 missions for QL25 ofab when you might get 80 VP in one mission. sorry not happening. Full set with 2 weapons for a dual wield class is going to run you just a tad over 1200 VP. Again best case 15 missions more like 18-20. Or 5ish runs that your sides wins of the 20-49 BS. Of course that means waiting to level 20 and heck a level 17 can get 25 ofab on easy. Now at level 50 you need 1000vp just for attunement devices and as you state some OFAB pieces are really nice. but at ql50 they get expensive. At Ql75 you really are needing BS to effectively farm the VP. And I refuse to accept your use a TL7 to farm it as accepted. Since I do not accept it the idea is not 100% accepted and I am sure more than myself feel that way.

Why ever would you want ofab weapons? For the ludicrous reqs, you're far better off getting much easier to get weapons. The SoM Neleb stick that is disgustingly OP is far easier to get for far less time and MPs, docs, enfs, etc. are all better off getting it. For ranged, there's peren weapons, again far better than ofab. There's CoH weapons. There's CDRs. There's alien weapons. What prof exactly is tarded enough to want ofab weapons? They're designed to be useful at levels that include heavy twinking and AI armor. For the most part, they're no good with far better alternatives until tl7 (Silverback for PVP probably the one exception).

As you state there is token grind that you seem to think is so bad. Did you do a 1k board back when it took 1000+ missions and tokens were worth 1 and always 1? I know that pain and can say FC has made token grind pretty easy and the number of token sources now is stupid. I can count 6 methods for tokens now all of which are viable and continue to be dowe every day on RK.

Yep, tokens are now at an acceptable level of grind to me. The fact that this level of grind is still harder to get for token board than ofab just illustrates the absurdity of what you crybabies are demanding.

VP options by level: At level 1 to 49 you have LE missions 75% of the time as only active way for VP. At level 50-74 you have both (LE and BS). At level 75-149 you are back to missions only. 150-174 has two ways. And then 175 to 199 has one way. Level 200-209 is nice as a lot of time on RK1 that BS is being farmed for VP under agreement. At this level range I have seen VP gains of 15k an hour. By far the best VP gains I have ever seen in game. At level 210-220 we have an active BS to enjoy and VP gains are very nice. LE missions are just a side thought. The issue here is that level 1 to 149 has one really active BS and that leaves LE for all the other levels.

Yes, you've repeated yourself many times here. The problem is still between the keyboard and the chair.

Edit: Just to go back to a couple points:

You once more used the use your high level toon argument. For the uncountable time, we are argueing from the stand point that a player does not have a TL7 toon to farm for them. At least I am.

No, I'm not saying that's how you should do it. I'm pointing out three things, none of which are mutually exclusive.

1) Grind aint as bad as you make it out to be, there's far worse grinds out there in this game
2) There are other things you could wear if you don't like the effort vs reward
3) If you absolutely have to, you can always use a TL7 and get it in 15 mins, as with a lot of other things in this game

The responses by you and others are:

1) Nowai its whey bad!!!
2) Dont wannnaaa!!!1! ME ME ME ME WANT OFAB
3) Dont wannnaannaa!! FC h8!!1 </3

Which is why I'm posting to you like I would to petulant children.

In another thread you talked about helping a returning player. Had you not helped them their leveling experience that day would have not been nearly as good. Prime example of why the grinds are messed up. You even made a few good points in that thread. But I come here and you are all attack people and telling us to use TL7 support or OST blah blah blah.

I'm being consistent. Players need to be self-reliant, but it's good to help people when they start out. For various TL7s crying in this thread about VP despite constantly repeating the choice of methods to acquire things, is simply eyerolling nonsense.

Newsflash: For nearly every useful item in this game, there is only 1 way to get it. You're spoilt for choice with Ofab tbh.

[Omutb]

New players most certainly don't "need" Ofab. They don't "need" any armor post-SL for that matter, nor do they even "need" most SL armors. So if you don't have a high level toon, or if it's your first toon, you're not going to be at the very top of every single item grind, nor should you expect to be, which is the problem here. First day playing MMOs?

This has long been the problem.

People think they need things, Ive talked to many many new players that are living in the belief that they need and require all sorts of expensive items to keep playing, usually CoH loot, and without it they will be complete gimps and unable to kill even a level 1 leet.

MMOs arent a single tier environment, there will ALWAYS be several levels of player, from the elite at the top, to the gimps at the bottom, and the vast bulk in the middle between the two.

Its just that too many think they can play for a month and be at the top, instead of working their way up.

[Ahndracorvid]

This has long been the problem.

People think they need things, Ive talked to many many new players that are living in the belief that they need and require all sorts of expensive items to keep playing, usually CoH loot, and without it they will be complete gimps and unable to kill even a level 1 leet.

MMOs arent a single tier environment, there will ALWAYS be several levels of player, from the elite at the top, to the gimps at the bottom, and the vast bulk in the middle between the two.

Its just that too many think they can play for a month and be at the top, instead of working their way up.

Agreed with this, but on the flip side I think part of why people have that "I need XYZ to be like the uber people" mindset is because some established players don't always seem tolerant of newer people who lack resources and whose toons aren't necessarily the best equipped as a result. Yes, if you're new and still in newbie island armor at level 80, you should probably do something about it before too many of your teams start scolding you. :P But just because someone isn't fully twinked out for their level with the most expensive items available doesn't mean they can't still make a good team member.

[Chrys]

This has long been the problem.

People think they need things, Ive talked to many many new players that are living in the belief that they need and require all sorts of expensive items to keep playing, usually CoH loot, and without it they will be complete gimps and unable to kill even a level 1 leet.

MMOs arent a single tier environment, there will ALWAYS be several levels of player, from the elite at the top, to the gimps at the bottom, and the vast bulk in the middle between the two.

Its just that too many think they can play for a month and be at the top, instead of working their way up.

Yep. The problem is new players ask about what armor to get then people, probably for Epeen reasons tell them about how awesome combined armor is, if not get predator and ofab and whatever "uber" armors they can think of. Which they don't actually need to achieve all the content there is for their level.

Here's a list of good sub-tl7 armors that can get you by just fine for almost all PVM purposes. At low levels, player knowledge/skill > gear (except for the weapon, which as explained above, you don't want Ofab for):

RK armor:
Omni-steel ribbed / Apocalypse leather QL25-200 (omg that's good enough for tl1-6!!)
Carbonum/CAS ql1-200 (omg great at tl1-3)
Lion's Leather (omg great tl5 Advy/MA evade gear)
Tarasque armor (legs, smart hood, dchest, GoCs are all liek uber)
Sandy boots/goo (omg great evades for tl3/4/5)
Shapeshifter vest (best evade chest for tl3/4)
Miy's (awesome mods in the right spots woOoOoT)
Rhinoman's (omg melee <3)
RK uniques armor (omgomg they fixed spawntimes, now affordable for all1!!)
Boots of the Dancing King (great with /disco!)
Metallic Mantis (remember when everyone was wearing this?)
Yearning (omg my MP main levelled to tl5 in this omg dont tell no1plx!!!)
Lya's (remember to log in at Halloween and camp your pumpkins!)
Proactive/Reactive (zomg best TL5 HP armor evar1!!!)

SL armor:
Predator (z. o. m. g.)
Pernicious (like supple only free!!1!)
Tier (choose the one piece you get free from quests carefully!!)
Merlins (remember when everyone was wearing this till well into tl7?1!?)
Temple armor (so many gems here: pointy hat, runspeed boots, swift pants, cama pads, summer shorts)
Bellum (nuff said)
Crepuscule (does anyone bother to check what awesome mods some of these pieces have anymore?)
Sworn knight's (look carefully, ain't half bad and dirt cheap)
Mystical force (king of the evade armors. NR, runspeed, evades, and FREE is there anything bad about this?!?)

Cheap AI armor:
Enduring (wtf. Aliumz armor with nice HPz that you can upgrade some more for 10m a piece?!??)
Spiritual (wow caster armor for even cheaper?!?)

Instead the whiny crybabies are sobbing that there's no choice on one series of items when the choice they're looking for exists at a different level

[PhoenixOfAges]

And how much will a full set of ql25 ofab cost? That's what, less than 10 missions?

I know that and if you look at my old thread on the matter still linked in my sig you'll see I said just that (around nine actually, can be more or less depending on your luck). Although by the time you hit lvl 20 or so you can get on QL 50 OFAB which is over four times the cost of QL 25. By around lvl 60 you can get on about QL 100 OFAB which is almost seventeen times the cost of QL 25. Yet the VP gains in missions in those ranges has not gone up much at all. So big whoop if QL 25 is really cheap and easy to get.

Then weapons are even more costly than the armour plus you can twink weapon skills far better than abilities. Should a weapon at any given lvl be of interest it takes a good while to get both the VP and types required, especially if you dual wield.

But you don't need a full set by then. ...

The value of each part in a given set varies from set to set and in relation to other options available at that lvl. Regardless of if you think a person needs anything or not there is no reason to deny them the option. This is a game, people are free to play it in whatever way they want which gives them enjoyment so long as it does not hurt others.

Your posts on this matter can largely be summed up with just "STFU you noob, you don't need it but if you want it go do BSs" yet you tend to write quite a good bit of text on the matter yourself. You come off as being quite arrogant, a common speaking tone among opponents of this issue. Then a healthy portion of your posts are insults, which is a staple "debating" skill for opponents of this issue apparently. Be aware though that there have been times those such as yourself took things too far resulting in related posts being deleted or threads started purely to flame your opponents locked.

In the time you spend doing that, you could get a single piece of AI armor that almost certainly is better than the one part of Ofab at that level instead.

And again OFAB was suppose to be easier to farm than combined so if you feel otherwise at any lvl then there is clearly a problem. Also the armour is not the only issue, it's just all you seem to talk about. The issue as I keep saying is VP gains on a whole, which buys more than just armour.

At tl2 and early tl3 maybe, but only because early AI levels are dead easy to get. At tl4, it's a LOT of mishing to reach, say ai14 (accessible at 120).

I've hit AI lvl cap from lvl 138 LE missions with a lvl 150 char before and was still well short of the VP amount I was looking for. This was before the AXP values went up and when I started at about AI lvl 12 or 13 (cap at 150 is AI 20). Along the way I even did a good number of lvl 90 or so 0 AXP grey missions for general type farming where I cleared at least much of the mission area and looted for clumps. Now it would be even worse as while the AXP values went up the VP sure didn't.

Since the VP costs go up at a far higher rate than the VP gains do not even the increased AXP reqs will prevent you from AI lvl capping long before you gather much of the VP you may be after.

Hell most of the TL7s have several hundred thousand VPs they don't have the slightest clue what to do with.

Those are the ones that spend a lot of time in BSs, not TL7s on a whole.

[Chrys]

@PhoenixofWallzoftext:

1) Grind aint as bad as you make it out to be, there's far worse grinds out there in this game
2) There are other things you could wear if you don't like the effort vs reward
3) If you absolutely have to, you can always use a TL7 and get it in 15 mins, as with a lot of other things in this game

Addenda: 4) You could also have just stepped onto BS and hid in a corner for tl5 instead of your 150 that went from AI12-20 (rofl) on LE mishes. Or farmed a full set of AI armor in the same time.

End of discussion.

[Lheann]

End of discussion.

Oh please let this be true.

[ThePartisan]

191st!!

[Ayria]

End of discussion.

Good to know that you're the authority here

Tell us, Chrys, why is it such a big deal if someone wants Ofab? Does it physically hurt your gameplay that someone wants to do LE missions to get Ofab? Does it make you feel special to try to boss them around and tell them how they should get Ofab?

Just as people don't need Ofab, you don't either. People don't need BS to be active, people don't need anything in this game. But you feel you're entitled to everything anyway. You feel that people should do things your way because you want BS to be active and feel that it should be that way.

The, end of discussion, here is that you're a hypocrite and always have been. If/when Means adds new methods of VP and (if) it kills BS cause all the PvMers flock to the new method that's that. You don't need BS to be active just like we don't need Ofab.

[Notcrattey]

Does it make you feel special to try to boss them around and tell them how they should get Ofab?

Who said they can't get their ofab from LE missions anyhow?

[Lheann]

Who said they can't get their ofab from LE missions anyhow?

Not saying you cant get it. But currently the common approach is OFAB at level 220 and the rest is some other armor. If you want to use OFAB as you level or at a level were there is no active BS and it happens to be QL100+ ofab you need then the mission VP scale is sadly lacking.

We are here to have fun or at least most of us. If we listened to current logic such as Chrys then we would all play the game as if it was a second job or exploits a serious design hole of 220's OST for lowbies to avoid the job part of it.

In the end it will come down to what does FC have to do to make the game attractive to players vice the game getting shutdown. As I said, change is coming.

[Notcrattey]

mission VP scale is sadly lacking.

This much is true, would be nice to see this worked on.

[Chrys]

Good to know that you're the authority here

Tell us, Chrys, why is it such a big deal if someone wants Ofab? Does it physically hurt your gameplay that someone wants to do LE missions to get Ofab? Does it make you feel special to try to boss them around and tell them how they should get Ofab?

No big deal at all. They can want all they like. But asking for their stuff on a silver PVM platter is silly, just the same as asking for other hard-to-get items when there's already a proven intended way of getting these things and a host of alternatives if they don't like the effort:reward ratio.

Just as people don't need Ofab, you don't either. People don't need BS to be active, people don't need anything in this game. But you feel you're entitled to everything anyway. You feel that people should do things your way because you want BS to be active and feel that it should be that way.

Nope, I ccl about lowbie BS, it sucks to me and I already have all my ofabz, I already said that. I'd like for improvements to BS made, but that's a separate discussion altogether. Some people do enjoy it, they should be protected. Insisting that what currently exists in game is working just fine isn't asking for any change to any thing. No change in expectations, no change in dev workload, no change in game mechanics, no change anywhere. If FC decide they want to take that on, fine. Then I'll oppose it. But atm my only point is Working as Intended (tm). Want, cry, all you like. No sympathy from me when you reject all the other choices available at different levels to you, then cry that there's no choice.

The, end of discussion, here is that you're a hypocrite and always have been. If/when Means adds new methods of VP and (if) it kills BS cause all the PvMers flock to the new method that's that. You don't need BS to be active just like we don't need Ofab.

I suggest the following:

RK armor:
Omni-steel ribbed / Apocalypse leather QL25-200 (omg that's good enough for tl1-6!!)
Carbonum/CAS ql1-200 (omg great at tl1-3)
Lion's Leather (omg great tl5 Advy/MA evade gear)
Tarasque armor (legs, smart hood, dchest, GoCs are all liek uber)
Sandy boots/goo (omg great evades for tl3/4/5)
Shapeshifter vest (best evade chest for tl3/4)
Miy's (awesome mods in the right spots woOoOoT)
Rhinoman's (omg melee <3)
RK uniques armor (omgomg they fixed spawntimes, now affordable for all1!!)
Boots of the Dancing King (great with /disco!)
Metallic Mantis (remember when everyone was wearing this?)
Yearning (omg my MP main levelled to tl5 in this omg dont tell no1plx!!!)
Lya's (remember to log in at Halloween and camp your pumpkins!)
Proactive/Reactive (zomg best TL5 HP armor evar1!!!)

SL armor:
Predator (z. o. m. g.)
Pernicious (like supple only free!!1!)
Tier (choose the one piece you get free from quests carefully!!)
Merlins (remember when everyone was wearing this till well into tl7?1!?)
Temple armor (so many gems here: pointy hat, runspeed boots, swift pants, cama pads, summer shorts)
Bellum (nuff said)
Crepuscule (does anyone bother to check what awesome mods some of these pieces have anymore?)
Sworn knight's (look carefully, ain't half bad and dirt cheap)
Mystical force (king of the evade armors. NR, runspeed, evades, and FREE is there anything bad about this?!?)

Cheap AI armor:
Enduring (wtf. Aliumz armor with nice HPz that you can upgrade some more for 10m a piece?!??)
Spiritual (wow caster armor for even cheaper?!?)

You're welcome!

[Ayria]

No big deal at all.

So you're continued presence here is just a coincidence?

Obviously you care enough to troll, obviously it's a big enough deal to you. Do you think that if they add a new PvM VP method that we wouldn't have to work for it? That they'd just hand us the VP? I don't see anyone asking for stuff on a platter.

Nope, I ccl about lowbie BS, it sucks to me and I already have all my ofabz, I already said that.

So you're in the "I did it this way everyone after me has to do it the same way otherwise it belittles my effort" group. Archaic ideals.

Some people do enjoy it, they should be protected.

Why? Some people enjoy PvM, I don't see them being protected.

I suggest the following:

How about trying them for yourselves, you don't need Ofab you should just use the same list of armour. Nothing wrong with them right? You're suggesting we use them so you must think they're good enough.

/me waits for Chrys' excuse not to use the armour she listed...

[Chrys]

So you're continued presence here is just a coincidence?

Yep. Work passing slowly the last couple days tbh.

Obviously you care enough to troll, obviously it's a big enough deal to you. Do you think that if they add a new PvM VP method that we wouldn't have to work for it? That they'd just hand us the VP? I don't see anyone asking for stuff on a platter.

So you're in the "I did it this way everyone after me has to do it the same way otherwise it belittles my effort" group. Archaic ideals.

Not what I said. Try again.

Why? Some people enjoy PvM, I don't see them being protected.

They have a means to get it. Now stop crying.

How about trying them for yourselves, you don't need Ofab you should just use the same list of armour. Nothing wrong with them right? You're suggesting we use them so you must think they're good enough.

/me waits for Chrys' excuse not to use the armour she listed...

Ackshully...

My 90 agent uses Pred, Temple armor, Shapeshifter vest, and just 2 parts CSS (which I farmed myself). Needed 400 VPs for med/health huds that took me 20 mins to get. Farmed 1k for laser beacon from LE mishes. Can solo tiigs and even kill an ely heck solo with a decent opening AS.

My 118 MP uses Pred, Temple armor, mystical force, and 1 part CS (which I farmed myself). Needed 600 VPs for med/health/def huds that took me ... well which I got incidentally from farming AI13. Farmed 1k for laser beacon on top. Can solo S10, ely hecks, LE mishes.

My 150 fix uses Pred, sandy boots, shapeshifter vest, lya pants. Needed... er 400 VPs for med/health aug that too me 20 mins to get. Can do everything in S10 but the generals that aren't meant to be solo'd anyway.

My 170 Adv uses pure CC. Needed some huds and stuff, maybe 2k VPs. Can do lotsa stuff tbh. When it was 150, it was in lion's leather + sandy + dchest/legs + omni steel-ribbed + smart hood + all kinds of frooby stuff. And could solo everything my fixer could in s10 but faster (with chirops lol). Could tank east/west generals with a 3-man IIRC.

My 60 soldier uses CC and 3 parts ofab and soldier ring. That one took me a week or more to get, and mainly because I wanted an insane AR setup (that I would nowadays switch to full CC except chest now, given the death of GA fixers and the rise of traders... if I could be arsed to - 800 AR isn't really needed at 60 tbh). Can solo Aztur trio with kiting, or tank'n'spank with a hot. I've had this toon for 4 years. Before Ofab came along, it was in Mantis+CSS. While farming my CSS back in 2005, it was in Mantis+ql30ish Pernicious to solo ground raids (just need HnQ lol). Could also solo Aztur in Pernicious+mantis back in 2005 with HnQ.

My current levelling enf is a 15-min job of Medsuit + GTA (first kill lolol) with ql75 implants at level 53(4?), can solo nasc hecks as long as not too many adds.

The last levelling toon I made was my 220 soldier. She used Medsuit > borrowed 75 CC > freddy sleeves > more borrowed crappy ql CC/CSS + mystical force > currently in ofab she farmed from 210 sitting in turrets and spamming BURST! FA! with awzum dsharks. Still wearing freddy sleeves (shhhhhssshh).

All the toons except the fixer were made for PVP. I'm also an incorrigible cheapskate, hence the budget options. They all work very good in PVM or PVP (hell they're superduperuber in PVM, they're average in PVP).

Edit: Point isn't to boast (though Ayria brought up a nice opportunity to show exactly what I'm talking about with "You don't 'need' ofab"). Point is: what PVM activities are there exactly that absolutely require Ofab? None whatsoever. Choice exists. Get over yourselves.

[PhoenixOfAges]

4) You could also have just stepped onto BS and hid in a corner for tl5 instead of your 150 that went from AI12-20 (rofl) on LE mishes.

I wanted the AI lvls and the VP. You said that by TL 4 you'd get the VP before hitting your AI lvl cap. I showed you that you don't by far at lvl 150 which is only the start of TL5. Also again you rhymed off a leeching method that shouldn't even exist as a way we should get VP.


You gripe that it is in my/our opinion that there should be changes and what not but that there shouldn't is just an opinion of your own. Also since Means has said they plan to add more means of access to gain VP it is clearly an opinion Means does not share.

Then you have gone on and on that things are working as intended in regards to VP, they aren't. As has been said we were told flat out that the VP in BSs was increased and as it turned out increased significantly just to try and get the dead ones active. That is the only reason the VP is so high there. It's not due to the intended balance of gains, just due to an effort to make them all run which has failed to happen.

Generally when someone starts seriously PvPing with a char they will have or pretty much have completed it and it's locked out at a given lvl. The only time the char may change at all is when new items are added to the game. Due to that a high rate of gains of a nodrop currency that buys mostly general use nodrop items that often are not of use in PvP does them little to no good. This is why so many threads asking for new things to spend their VP on get started. It makes little sense to provide so much of such a reward to people that are bound to get the least use out of it.

Imagine if XP worked like VP does now. In one method killing mobs in "team missions" for XP drops may give you zero to some XP per mob based almost solely on your luck. Although only one person in the team can expect to get much XP this method due to the poor and very random drops with small returns per drop. Mind you one could always forgo the team and log a high lvl to kill for your lowbie so it gains XP in the complete safety of a high lvl's protection. In another you gather up six people on both sides and agree to go into a certain zone together to alternately use or not use four different things found there then wait a while. You could also go into the same zone, activate a keyboard macro that keeps you from going AFK then start watching TV. That's the kind of things that can and do happen with VP. To a certain extent some of those things mirror OST and kite teams, something Means has gone on the record to say he really doesn't like.

There should be a clear effort equals reward equation you can't get around but with VP there isn't. BSs are the worst for that as since it is purely player actions that decide the outcome the outcome can be staged. With so many of the BSs always dead you could gather up some people to farm VP in what is obviously not the intended manner. It doesn't make sense and shouldn't really be that way. Also no one is saying they absolutely need item X, we are saying we'd like a real option to get it should we want to at any given lvl.

[Chrys]

I wanted the AI lvls and the VP. You said that by TL 4 you'd get the VP before hitting your AI lvl cap. I showed you that you don't by far at lvl 150 which is only the start of TL5. Also again you rhymed off a leeching method that shouldn't even exist as a way we should get VP.

Can you play the game and tackle its content just fine with the options FC gives to you? Yes you can.

Whatever OCD made you farm every single last piece of Ofab on your 150 without once stepping onto the second most active BS says there's something seriously wrong with your expectations. And that's all there is to it.