Friday with Means - February 19th, 2010 - The trifecta!

[Wrangeline]

@Means: What is the point of tokenboards if people can simply pay a few hundred mils for an instant 2500 tokenboard? Tokenboards was one of the few things left in this game that people had to work for. Now people can just buy one.

"I have been sitting afk in this ely kite-team and now I'm already 145. I only have 3 tokens but that's not a problem. I'll just buy some bags on my main and then an hour later I will have 2500 tokens on this char."

I don't see the point

[Ebondevil]

@Means: What is the point of tokenboards if people can simply pay a few hundred mils for an instant 2500 tokenboard? Tokenboards was one of the few things left in this game that people had to work for. Now people can just buy one.

"I have been sitting afk in this ely kite-team and now I'm already 145. I only have 3 tokens but that's not a problem. I'll just buy some bags on my main and then an hour later I will have 2500 tokens on this char."

I don't see the point

Generally I would think that the people who could afford to buy the tokens in such a manner will be the older players who have probably already farmed 2500 tokens or more, having to farm 2500 tokens on every single toon is quite honestly rather frustrating, 1000 is bad enough afterall.

But hey that's my take on it.

[Wrangeline]

Generally I would think that the people who could afford to buy the tokens in such a manner will be the older players who have probably already farmed 2500 tokens or more, having to farm 2500 tokens on every single toon is quite honestly rather frustrating, 1000 is bad enough afterall.

But hey that's my take on it.

Older players have been catered to with PvP quests, tokens for VP, further reduced price of tokens for VP, huge increase in VP-gain from BS, token gun quests and so on.

Earning tokens now is way easier than it used to be. Which is fair enough. Especially for long-time players as you say.

However, simply buying tokens bypasses all of this and also defeats the purpose of tokenboards.

[ElBoogy]

Tokens for 1 Char ok sure no problem, second char uh ok i must make them, third char... token ? noes go away with them i will use crappy beast board or something like that, but please no 3rd token grind...

This is what many people think, maybe the best would be some discount in the token amount of 2nd 3rd 66th character...

[Technogen]

Tokens really are not that hard anymore :/ there's sooooo many ways to get tokens now.

[Psyonis]

I've always seen tokens as a real achievement not something that could be purchased. It doesn't seem like much of an accomplishment, kinda the same as people that purchase in game credits/gold on ebay.

[Klod9003]

When did they implement tokens for sale?

[erozc]

When did they implement tokens for sale?

Probably means buying backpacks of DSCDs instead of backpacks of token guns, and returning them is much less of a hassle anyway...

[Ebondevil]

Probably means buying backpacks of DSCDs instead of backpacks of token guns, and returning them is much less of a hassle anyway...

And someone still farms those tokens, they get credits for the effort, gives a good way of moving cash from those that have it in abundance to those that don't and lets people enjoy the parts of the game they enjoy more.

I'm not saying it's a good thing, I'm saying I can understand it and honestly I don't think it's a big problem.

P.S. I've never bought nor sold Token guns

[Wrangeline]

I just wanted to chime in real quick and add some info about why I'm asking what the point of token boards is now that people can buy all the tokens they need very effectively.

I'm asking simply because tokenboards used to be about proving your worth to your faction. It was one thing that stood aside from most other content. You had to personally work on it and personally earn the right to wear a good token board. It was a pure effort-reward type of thing and it couldn't be faked or exploited or bypassed by throwing credits at it.

The basic idea behind the token board though is based a lot on roleplaying. I enjoyed the concept of tokenboards because it really was about earning respect from your faction and being rewarded accordingly. Having a good tokenboard always meant that you had earned it and and that you should feel proud for having it.

Now that tokenboards can be bought and tokenboards with almost the same reqs drop off dreadlocks that don't even have token-requirement, the original concept of tokenboards has been twisted into "yet another time-waster that holds no real value to anyone except the stats that it provide". I think buying tokens is equally as bad as paying some NT to level your char while you sit afk in Ely for hours on end.

I think tokenboards should be a personal work in progress just like XP or AXP or research. I don't think any of these things should be bought. They should be earned. The reason I place tokens into this group is because tokens are rewards for work done for your faction. It's about respect that you earned. Paying someone else to prove themselves to their faction over and over and then you reap their rewards is.. I dunno, it just seems wrong. I imagine back in the old days if people did missions over and over and then sold bags of tokens to other people because those tokens weren't nodrop. That would kinda ruin the whole point of earning respect from your faction.

Having that said, I do understand that AO has a lot of grinds and that the more alts you make, the more HORRIBLE those grinds become. I perfectly understand the need to find some shortcuts when you have done these things many times before on your alts.

The bottom line though is that with the current buy/sell system, the original concept of tokenboards has gone away and I just want to ask why this happened and if there's anything that can be done to fix it. If grinding 2500 tokens on every new alt is too much to ask, then I personally think there are better ways to fix that problem than to allow the buying and selling of token-stuff. If a non-buying/selling change was added to the game, then the problem of repetitive farming would have been changed without ruining the concept of tokenboards.

I personally want anything tokenboard related, anything that has anything to do with personal efforts for your own faction, to be nodrop and.. personal. I don't want other people to be involved or to do that work for you. It just seems wrong to me. I'd rather find some other way of dealing with repetitive token-grind than to simply make them sellable and buyable. There simply must be some more tactful solutions FC could use than what is currently going on. I'm personally not really convinced that tokenboards should be easier to get on alts than it was on your first main but if most other people DO think it should be easier, then I'm willing to add my two cents for alternative solutions.

[Dancingrage]

*lots of snip*...

Having that said, I do understand that AO has a lot of grinds and that the more alts you make, the more HORRIBLE those grinds become. I perfectly understand the need to find some shortcuts when you have done these things many times before on your alts.

The bottom line though is that with the current buy/sell system, the original concept of tokenboards has gone away and I just want to ask why this happened and if there's anything that can be done to fix it. If grinding 2500 tokens on every new alt is too much to ask, then I personally think there are better ways to fix that problem than to allow the buying and selling of token-stuff. If a non-buying/selling change was added to the game, then the problem of repetitive farming would have been changed without ruining the concept of tokenboards.

I personally want anything tokenboard related, anything that has anything to do with personal efforts for your own faction, to be nodrop and.. personal. I don't want other people to be involved or to do that work for you. It just seems wrong to me. I'd rather find some other way of dealing with repetitive token-grind than to simply make them sellable and buyable. There simply must be some more tactful solutions FC could use than what is currently going on. I'm personally not really convinced that tokenboards should be easier to get on alts than it was on your first main but if most other people DO think it should be easier, then I'm willing to add my two cents for alternative solutions.

Part of the problem is that TL7 has a horrible amount of time invested per token for mishes, which is partially due to how mishes and mobs work out past 200: the HP bar grows by leaps and bounds even on the gimpy NT mobs. Combine that with the shrinking of the 'green area' (30% mishes and their mobs go from all green to half green and half grey the moment you hit 201, making that sort of token grinding almost impossible and also driving up time investment as 30% mishes now come with a solid chance of you blowing 10-30 minutes killing everything only to not get the token at the end from a bad roll. Compared to that, the Token Gun quest seems like a gift from the heavens to mortals on earth, even before it got streamlined.

Another problem is the mentality of players: Old time vets know enough about the game that they powerlevel and power grind everything to their target level, be it 15 or 220/30/70, and it's sorta inevitable that the mentality will spread to newer players as they run into 'em....though I suppose having what amounts to a full game of powerlevellers plugging away at levelling as fast as feasibly possible stopped being about vets taking shortcuts and everyone else trying to keep up with the Joneses, in terms of levelling speed. RK mishes, well, suck for most uses. Creds are ok, xp isn't too hot, etc. Not to mention every RK mish you do is 2 levels some other person got out of an Ely Heckler team, or another 10 someone got in a kite team, etc. I actually went out of my way to take my time levelling to some extent, and I probably could not count the number of toons rolled and dinged 220 in the time I've been moseying up that way. US times being slower and slower don't help much, why I"m waiting rather anxiously for the Daily Mishes and testing them when I have time.

What doesn't help is there's no real method of doing tokens solo aside from token guns and the roll and pray you get enough % method in any real time. There's the 50 tokens you get from the Dreadloch bosses, but I don't forsee doing THOSE on my MP, and while sure, you could go and farm LE mishes or BS for tokens, LE mishes rarely run for VP since the reward isn't comparable to BS, and BS is dictated entirely on the whims of who's winning and if the other side isn't demoralized enough to quit yet, not to mention the tons and tons of other items that you have to consider buying through VP, like nanos, your whole Ofab armor set, the Special Ed helmet, and so on, which looks pretty daunting if you're either not on often enough or really not at all interested in pvp (even LE solo mishes would be nicer than trying to stand through the nasty little drama that tends to be the battlestation.)

As for personal/RP value, the problem I see there is there's no person giving you the thumbs up, good job, or thanks, it's all just clicking and upgrading your token board, or finally cramming on the Paragon at 210. I suppose if there was someone you'd go to for upgrading your board who'd comment on your progress there, it's one thing but you really don't hear any of that in game.

A lot of the concept also seems to flow with ideas I've seen of putting more 'faction' and rewards into play in the RK side of things as well though. In SL having faction has some small tangible benefits, especially towards endgame, whereas on RK you're clan, or omni, or neut and aside from shopfood prices and location, its pretty set in stone and there's no 'faction' or benefits from it like there are in SL. That probably would also help with the whole RP feeling like your part in the struggle actually matters instead of just a disconnected abstract.

And I'd like to see more ideas on how to get tokens, especially for TL7 soloists.

[Wrangeline]

On the topic of what it's like to farm tokens these days, I do agree that the PvM-ways of getting tokens is very limited and outdated. PvP'ers got a very effective token grind in BS and with PvP quests. The PvM-ways of getting tokens is very much playing catch-up to the PvP-ways atm. Mostly because the main way of getting tokens through PvM (rk missions) is very outdated. The game and its players have changed a lot over these 9 years but RK-missions are still pretty much exactly the same as they always were.

So in terms of practical thinking, I would personally want tokengun-boxes and such to not be tradeable and THEN add more ways of farming tokens via PvM and to make them just as effective as the PvP-ways of getting tokens.

That's my personal take on it though.

As for a NPC's dealing with you for tokens, we do kinda have that atm with the gun-quest. The only problem as I see it is that all the work that needs to be done is done by someone else, and then you pay some credits and get to swoop in and get the credit from those NPC's yourself. This turns the cool concept of merit boards into.. "Just bribe me and I'll make you a honored member. NEXT!"

[Governator]

I would love to have more RP based ways for me to gain tokens. There are so many sided "bases" out there that I would love to siege and gain tokens for wiping the clan off the map.

+1 for more PVM ways to get tokens for carebears like me.

[Grumpymcfart]

i would love to have more rp based ways for me to gain tokens. There are so many sided "bases" out there that i would love to siege and gain tokens for wiping the clan off the map.

+1 for more pvm ways to get tokens for carebears like me.

qft!

[PhoenixOfAges]

A big part of the problem in token gain grind now really is a result of how players lvl their chars. If you zip up to 210+ and only then start gathering something that you were suppose to be working at from about lvl one and on then of course it will seem bad. Add to that all the other stuff you're suppose to gather up and FC keeps adding to and it really seems overwhelming at the end game area.

Tokens though can be gathered well enough at earlier lvls. Green solo missions pulled by lvl 125 and lower chars or so are still generally pretty small so can be cleared quickly. Even though they are called "PvP" missions given how quiet the cities you're sent to can be and player population it can be rare to ever run into another player let alone one that will attack you. Some quests give you tokens as well then there's LE missions which supposedly are going to get some of the harder hitters nerfed since they're changing clump QL reqs.

Buying your tokens I agree doesn't seem right though. To add to that you don't even have to buy the filled items from those of your side. Some may even farm guns from their own sided mobs as the only loss is on the one token reward item they sometimes drop which is useless if the farming char has more than 2.5k tokens anyhow. Also originally it seemed the main idea of those missions was to get parts for better towers, not the tokens. For some time most people likely tossed the tower gun out as they just wanted the token. Recent changes have no doubt only made that worse as the focus has gone towards the token even more.

Some more variety in PvM ways to get tokens which you can't just buy your way through would be nice.

[NoGoal]

I'm asking simply because tokenboards used to be about proving your worth to your faction. It was one thing that stood aside from most other content. You had to personally work on it and personally earn the right to wear a good token board. It was a pure effort-reward type of thing and it couldn't be faked or exploited or bypassed by throwing credits at it.

I'd like to know how many tokens you have on your main. Back then, when players were mainly doing RK missions, they had a lot of tokens and didn't do anything special to get them. I know players who have 5k+ tokens and they never farmed or 'proved their worth to their faction' like you said. They simply grinded missions for xp, credz, items and fun.

Tokens really are not that hard anymore :/ there's sooooo many ways to get tokens now.

They never been hard, just a long boring grind. If you started playing AO after SL.

[Mastablasta]

I never really understood how you got to have so many tokens. I had somewhat above 1000 tokens and I dinged 200 pre-SL. Sure, it was in the age of scaling token rewards and team missions, but ... people got fewer tokens before that. Sure, there was some outdoor hunting too, but everyone did that at the time, still, some people really must've grinded tokens hardcore to get so many.
I had to grind tokens to be able to use the 1750 board, and then later I had to grind tokens to use the 2500 board... how people managed to get so many tokens through normal leveling is beyond me :|

[Wrangeline]

I'd like to know how many tokens you have on your main. Back then, when players were mainly doing RK missions, they had a lot of tokens and didn't do anything special to get them. I know players who have 5k+ tokens and they never farmed or 'proved their worth to their faction' like you said. They simply grinded missions for xp, credz, items and fun.

I got almost 5k on Wrangeline, 2700ish on my soldier, 1400ish on my doc and so on. The only character I purposefully farmed tokens with was my soldier.

People did prove their worth to their faction back then. Saying that they didn't simply means that you have misunderstood what that actually means in a game like this. It doesn't matter if people purposefully farm tokens just to get tokens or if they go about their daily life as a clanner/ommer and just happen to get tokens as a byproduct of those activities. If you earn tokens in any way, you are proving your worth and earning respect from your faction. Doing missions only to get tokens or doing missions for XP and getting tokens as a byproduct is not important in this context at all. If you are doing missions (for example), for whatever reason, you are doing work for your faction and earning prestige and respect as a result of it.

If you are pulling missions from a mission terminal that belongs to your faction, you are doing work for your faction and earning respect and prestige in the process. These missions aren't just some random fluff. They are a part of the faction-fabric. Even when you get missions that contain only neutral mobs and NPC's, you are doing work for your faction because the missions was given from your faction.

[NoGoal]

So one could argue that providing your side with guns is proving your worth to your faction?

[Wrangeline]

So one could argue that providing your side with guns is proving your worth to your faction?

Yes.

On a theoretical level, paying someone else to do the work for you could be considered just another way to provide for your faction and as such buying tokenguns from other players could be considered just fine.

However this is also just a game and sometimes the intentions of a concept should take precedence over justifications for shortcuts.

In this specific case, spending no more than 1 hour to go from 0 tokens to all the tokens you would ever need through a single payment, seems to ruin the concept of tokenboards.

To put a more detailed point on it; if this was simply a matter of "a reward for helping out" then I wouldn't mind people being able to directly buy that reward. The tokenboard however is, or at least was, more than just "a reward". It was a sign of respect and earned status through direct involvement in the cause of your faction. I personally want to preserve that and I want FC to find some other way of dealing with tokengrinds than to simply turn this cool concept of an item into "just another item".

Tokenboard was the only item in this game that used to actually mean something. Now that people can buy it, it's just another item. This is what I'm objecting to. That's all